3. PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
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surkhab

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PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« on: November 21, 2024, 08:55:33 pm »
Hello everybody. I received a PCN which doesn't make sense to me. I appealed but of course got rejected. Can you guys take a look and tell me if I'm in the wrong? I have attached everything necessary (I think).

The images (hopefully this works)

The exact location:  53.4708164, -2.2331194 GSV

Sorry if I sound "obnoxious", this is my first time asking 'strangers' for help.

An FYI, in the rejection, it talks about "signage". I have no clue what that even means, so there's no way I could've asked about it.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 10:04:54 pm by surkhab »
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John U.K.

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2024, 09:31:54 pm »
May we see a GSV link to the location, please
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surkhab

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2024, 10:02:55 pm »
Yes sorry here it is.
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2024, 11:33:08 pm »
No signs are needed for cars parked more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway, so that is what they mean by "signage"
HOwever, it is clear the contravention as described on the PCN did not occur, because the vehicle has to be on the carriagway in order to be 50cm away from its edge. Your car is off the carriageway being on a vehicle crossing giving access to parking there and on the other side of the ugly brick building! Therefore the contravention did not occur.

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surkhab

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2024, 11:43:07 pm »
Ahh ok, thanks for the explanation!
"ugly brick building" lol.
Yeah that was what I was confused about, I wasn't even on the carriageway so how can I be 50cm from it's edge.
Can you (or anybody) please give me further advice on what to do then.
Thank you.
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2024, 11:49:56 pm »
Try this: -

Dear Sirs

PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at Kincardine Road

I deny responsibility for the penalty charge demanded on the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.  The contravention stated on the PCN is only valid when the vehicle allegedly in contravention is actually parked on the carriageway.  As your own photographs show, my vehicle was not parked on the carriageway.

The PCN is therefore invalid and I request its immediate cancellation

Yours faithfully

They will inevitably just send you the usual Fob-Off letter. Please post it here when you get it.

Be aware that virtually all staff in council traffic and parking enforcement offices have no knowledge of the law at all and just send out whatever the computer tells them to. In addition, councils know that if they send out Fob-Off letters refusing every representation received, then most people, (like 98%), just cough-up.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 11:53:46 pm by Incandescent »
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surkhab

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2024, 12:39:25 am »
Brilliant, thank you so much! Can you please also tell me to whom do I send this email to?



What a great system.
🙄

And yes I sure will :)
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2024, 12:53:58 am »
Quote from: surkhab on November 22, 2024, 12:39:25 am
Brilliant, thank you so much! Can you please also tell me to whom do I send this email to?



What a great system.
🙄

And yes I sure will :)
You should be able to enter the text to their representations page on their website, or send it via an email address on the PCN. Always keep the response to the input.
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surkhab

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2024, 11:59:06 pm »
Hello everybody,

Turns out I had gotten a reply from them like 12 days ago and I'm not sure how I missed it - when I check my emails daily  :-\ .
This is what they said - here
I'm not sure if me being late "hurts" me anyhow.

FYI, I have not received any letters in post from them.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 12:03:22 am by surkhab »
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2024, 12:36:25 am »
The usual Fob-Off re-offering the discount.

Next stage is they serve a Notice to Owner, when you have to submit representations again, mostly the same as your initial challenge, but updated following input from this forum.  Reps against NtOs are normally looked at more carefully at the council office, because they know it is no-brainer for you to take them to adjudication if they refuse them. Going to adjudication means they must prepare an evidence pack and also pay a fee for the adjudication, so even if they refuse your reps they often re-offer the discount.

It's a game and they game it ruthlessly.
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Enceladus

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2024, 01:15:30 am »
Quote from: surkhab on December 10, 2024, 11:59:06 pm
Hello everybody,

Turns out I had gotten a reply from them like 12 days ago and I'm not sure how I missed it - when I check my emails daily  :-\ .
This is what they said - here
I'm not sure if me being late "hurts" me anyhow.

FYI, I have not received any letters in post from them.
Please explain what you mean by the above?

The link in your opening post includes a rejection letter dated the 21st of November. Looks like you submitted an informal representation against the PCN issued on the 11th November on the same day, and the Council rejected, as per the 21st Nov letter.

The next stage will be  Notice to Owner (NTO) so is the name and address for the Registered Keeper (RK) on the registration certificate (V5c) correct and current? Don't just assume it is, get it out and check.
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surkhab

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2024, 10:37:23 pm »
Quote from: Enceladus on December 11, 2024, 01:15:30 am
Quote from: surkhab on December 10, 2024, 11:59:06 pm
Hello everybody,

Turns out I had gotten a reply from them like 12 days ago and I'm not sure how I missed it - when I check my emails daily  :-\ .
This is what they said - here
I'm not sure if me being late "hurts" me anyhow.

FYI, I have not received any letters in post from them.
Please explain what you mean by the above?

The link in your opening post includes a rejection letter dated the 21st of November. Looks like you submitted an informal representation against the PCN issued on the 11th November on the same day, and the Council rejected, as per the 21st Nov letter.

The next stage will be  Notice to Owner (NTO) so is the name and address for the Registered Keeper (RK) on the registration certificate (V5c) correct and current? Don't just assume it is, get it out and check.

Yes sure.
After the 1st rejection letter (21st Nov), I made another informal appeal as directed by 'Incandescent' and received a response on 29th Nov. However, I didn't realise I had gotten a reply from them (even though I check my emails daily). Hence, I am posting this now and not on the 29th.

Thanks for suggesting I check my V5. My name and current address is on it. (Its on the rejection letter too).
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surkhab

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2024, 10:40:48 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on December 11, 2024, 12:36:25 am
The usual Fob-Off re-offering the discount.

Next stage is they serve a Notice to Owner, when you have to submit representations again, mostly the same as your initial challenge, but updated following input from this forum.  Reps against NtOs are normally looked at more carefully at the council office, because they know it is no-brainer for you to take them to adjudication if they refuse them. Going to adjudication means they must prepare an evidence pack and also pay a fee for the adjudication, so even if they refuse your reps they often re-offer the discount.

It's a game and they game it ruthlessly.

😬😬
So do I just wait for a letter to be posted to me now then?



Side note:
what does "return to this topic" mean, next to "notify me of replies".
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2024, 11:31:43 pm »
Quote
😬😬
So do I just wait for a letter to be posted to me now then?

Yes, as it says in "choices" on their letter rejecting your reps, or you can cough-up the £35. The Notice to Owner allows you to submit an formal representation against the PCN. These are normally looked at more carefully than informal challenges, where they reject almost 100% on the basis that most people then just cough-up.  Yes, they game the system ruthlessly to make sure the money keeps rolling in.

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surkhab

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Re: PCN-Code 26- Parked 50cm away from edge of carriageway-Manchester City Council
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2024, 11:57:08 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on December 11, 2024, 11:31:43 pm
Quote
😬😬
So do I just wait for a letter to be posted to me now then?

Yes, as it says in "choices" on their letter rejecting your reps, or you can cough-up the £35. The Notice to Owner allows you to submit an formal representation against the PCN. These are normally looked at more carefully than informal challenges, where they reject almost 100% on the basis that most people then just cough-up.  Yes, they game the system ruthlessly to make sure the money keeps rolling in.

Damn. Guess I'll wait then. Not paying when I'm not in the wrong.
Thanks for all the advice btw, really.
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