Free Traffic Legal Advice

Hi all,

I started this over at PPP but was advised to post here. I'm just going to copy/paste my post from there. If there's anything I've missed or more info required please let me know!


First post:

I'm hoping to get some help with what I should put in representations to Birmingham City Council in regard to a PCN from them saying I was using my car in a Clean Air Zone. They say the "offence" took place at Summer Hill Road at Spring Hill (outbound) which is a road leading up to a roundabout.

Some background:

I went to Birmingham for a one day convention. The location was much further into the city than I'd expected. I've only ever been to the NEC before, never further into Birmingham. I don't usually use GPS/SATNAV as my car doesn't have one, so on this occasion I decided to use Google Maps to get me to the event.

The hotel the event was taking place in is on Hagley Road. I went into Birmingham from the east via the A47.

I spent a good couple of hours yesterday trying to work out where I could have entered the CAZ. Again, I've never been into Birmingham before so I had no Earthly idea where this was! I finally found it on Google Maps, and it's right over to the west side of the city.

This leaves two possibilities:

1: Google sent me straight through the middle of the city, thus entering on the east side and driving through.

2: I somehow entered the zone on the west side, where the photo suggests.

I tried to retrace the route and I don't think I drove through the city, I think I went around it. I remember some kind of "Midway" on signs. I do recall either taking a wrong turn, or Google sending me down a side road, I can't remember exactly, so I think what happened was I went down a street that has a CAZ and then got back onto the main road and carried on to my destination. (I know this sounds a bit wishy washy but I have Fibromyalgia and brain fog is a large part of my life!)

As a visitor to Birmingham I had no idea a CAZ was in operation, I didn't even know it existed until I got this PCN a couple of days ago! It certainly wasn't on Google Maps. I live in rural Lincolnshire, we don't have anything like that here. It's only by looking at Google Street View I now know what the signs look like! I don't remember seeing any, but when you're driving around a city you've never been to before at half nine on a Saturday morning, using a SATNAV you're not used to I can see how I could have missed it.

So I was basically going to write the above and see if that gets it cancelled. What do you think my chances are?

PCN:
https://ibb.co/ynZRxTx
https://ibb.co/PZyNJBX
https://ibb.co/cJqSSJN
https://ibb.co/LnD2mq2

Thanks in advance!
Shurikenger.

Second post after rejection:

Well, my appeal was rejected. Apparently I'm supposed to psychically know what the little cloud symbols are, despite never driving in Birmingham or any other city with a CAZ before! 🙄

Obviously I'm going to take it to tribunal. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a first time visitor to know what these symbols are! It's all good and well saying I should know, but how am I supposed to?

Regardless, just posting to see if there's anything I should say to help my case other than what I already wrote in the appeal.

Rejection letter:
https://ibb.co/M86txm4
https://ibb.co/fvhWhdp
https://ibb.co/Yknym1B
https://ibb.co/cgzD6qH

Cheers.

Supplemental:

I have checked the Highway Code and these cloud symbols aren't in it, and we don't have any CAZ's in Lincolnshire, so I maintain that there's no way I could reasonably know what they meant. When driving in a place I've never been before I only take notice of road furniture that is in the Highway Code or ones that are important, like diversions and such. I don't even remember seeing one of these cloud signs!

Anything specific I should add to the appeal/tribunal?

Cheers!
Shurikenger.

No-one can help? Do you not deal with Birmingham? Lots of replies to other cases in London.

If you can't help me here then could someone at least point me to a forum that can? I've only a couple of weeks left to take to tribunal.

Cheers.

YOu didn't know what the signs meant, but looked at the Highway Code after getting the PCN to find there is nothing at all about these signs in the HC. Unfortunately in cases like this you have to take the double-or-quits gamble and take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

You need to emphasise that you rarely visit B'ham and knew nothing about the CAZ, and whilst you saw the signs did not know what they meant, and checking the HC was unable to find out

I'm afraid many millions of pounds are being generated by these CAZs and as adjudication costs double, most people just quietly cough up.

YOu didn't know what the signs meant, but looked at the Highway Code after getting the PCN to find there is nothing at all about these signs in the HC. Unfortunately in cases like this you have to take the double-or-quits gamble and take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

You need to emphasise that you rarely visit B'ham and knew nothing about the CAZ, and whilst you saw the signs did not know what they meant, and checking the HC was unable to find out

I'm afraid many millions of pounds are being generated by these CAZs and as adjudication costs double, most people just quietly cough up.

Yes, I am taking it to tribunal, that's why I was asking for help.

I've never driven in the city before. I go to the NEC three or four times a year and that's all.

I'm not sure what you mean by adjudication costs doubling? There was nothing to say I have to pay for the tribunal in the letter, nor on PPP where I first posted this.

Thanks for the reply though.

Basically you have nothing to lose. At least they will have to work for your money.

In preparing your representations it may be worth searching PPP for those few that have been successful based on first time visitor, not local etc and adapting one to your particular circumstances.

Appeal online, not by post. Don't give any detailed grounds, just say "I rely on my formal representations", for CAZ cases the portal asks you 3 supplemental questions about whether your vehicle is complaint, whether you drove in the zone and so on. Those questions are all prejudicial and should not be asked, so I'd recommend you answer "I don't know" to all three.

When the council provides its evidence pack, put it on here for us to review.

The tribunal website will encourage you to opt for a decision on the papers, and will tell you that a hearing is not required in most cases. That's a complete pile of BS, as illustrated by this case, you should therefore request a video hearing.

If, when the evidence pack comes through, any arguable grounds emerge, I might be able to act as your representative at the hearing. Your best bet is probably going to be on the issue of signage.

Hi again

Right, I have... Something back from the tribunal. They don't make this easy to follow do they?!

I've attached screen grabs of what's been provided. I don't know which of these you would need to see, so please let me know and I can upload/link.

There are three that are just videos of a car driving around, presumably the route I took. I'll link those here as they seem the most pertinent.

I am a bit late with this. I thought I'd get a letter, but it was an email that came on Tuesday that I've only just seen. (Tuesday was the 3rd anniversary of my Dad's death, I do nothing on that day for obvious reasons.)

Here's the list of items they provided:
https://ibb.co/FW3X9Rr
https://ibb.co/WsMJxkV
https://ibb.co/Q9ytfYD

Car 1: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/Birmingham/Lister-St-Inbound-via-Dartmouth-Middleway-anticlockwise.mp4

Yes, I can see the blue sign now, but have no recollection of it at the time. I do think Google took me down that road though. There was so much road funature it was really confusing.

Car 2: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/Birmingham/Lister-St-approach-2.mp4

Car 3: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/Birmingham/Lister-St-approach-3.mp4

This seems to have jumped from one place to somewhere else. I don't recognise that turn at all.

I don't know if all of those roadworks were there at the time. If they were then I'd have definitely been focusing on those and not random blue signs!

Anyway, I'm not sure what I have to do with all of this. It has boxes for comments but other than that I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with it now. It's really not set up for ND people like me!

Cheers!

Looking at your dashcam footage..... where in the world was googlemaps trying to take you?
Cos you seem to have been going round in circles.
All the clips are at the same junction?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4889217,-1.8853052,3a,75y,335.68h,71.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPVZ7uBfYTiYu1lIYKdsgJg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
this is the location and direction at clip one...the zone entry sign just visible to the right of the lights and possibly able to argue that it was not clear for a motorist making that turn.
Clip two is same junction but crossing from the right
Clip three.... turning from opposite direction.

Looking back at where the enforcement camera located you. I cannot see any reason for this circling, had you carried straight on and straight over Dartmouth Circus you would have not entered zone and got over to the west side that you seemed to be aiming for.
Which is easy for ma to know being a native of Birmingham but likely not so obvious for a visitor.

Going back to your original post, you were aiming for a hotel on the Hagley Road.
Which one pls.
I should be able to work out obvious route if nothing else and may be able to come up with what Google was up to.
I am not a fan of "following the satnav" as a defence cos it isn't one, drivers are still expected to be aware of signs.
But a combination of stressed by an errant satnav in a strange city, poorly located sign (dashcam footage Car 1) and signs not common or shown in Highway Code may be enough for a sympathetic adjudicator.