Author Topic: PCN at South Woodford late at night  (Read 391 times)

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PCN at South Woodford late at night
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I went out in South Woodford parked my car in a bay on the street and from the signs parking appeared to be free after 18:30 but not after mid-night

When I came back to my dis-belief I had a ticket on my car a PCN given at 21:37. I went to read the sign again and turns out after 18:30 till mid-night you cannot park there unless it's a taxi. Me and my daughter had to read the sign about 2-3 times to figure out why we got a ticket.  Found the sign a bit confusing had to read it about 2-3 times to figure out why we contravened but maybe we are just a bit slow 

Should I just go-ahead and pay the fine or is there any merit in appealing ?

The fact a warden came to that spot at almost 10pm suggests to me they know people get caught out and is an easy fine for them


Reason for fine: Stopped On A Taxi Rank
Contravention Code: 45
Penalty: £130 (50% discount if paid within 14 days)


I've uploaded photo of the sign on dropBox

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/i0r2uzf7gczvftwgd4bdz/RoadSign.jpg?rlkey=x1x4iudjpu8g474kwss11ujti&st=cv3ibsw0&dl=0


Thanks for any help and apologies if we just don't read the detail well enough

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Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
« Reply #1 on: »
Someting wrong with your Dropbox link, as the photo initially comes up then immediately disappears with an error screen.
You need to post the PCN too, please. A Google Street View link to the location would also not come amiss too.  When it comes to parking bay signs, one should read them from the top to the bottom.

Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
« Reply #2 on: »
We've seen this one before - I don't understand why they've divided the taxi time into two around midnight, and in doing so not put the first in time first.

There is a lot of sign clutter on that post. Some cases below.

Google Maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5945363,0.0241906,3a,75y,251.52h,78.93t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sTdU8aYezNp3uqI5oKkT_9Q!2e0!5s20160701T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D11.068363471717177%26panoid%3DTdU8aYezNp3uqI5oKkT_9Q%26yaw%3D251.52243179304432!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

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223044546A

The main question to be considered is whether the authority has complied with its duty of fairness towards the Appellant by providing information in a sufficiently clear manner for the combination of the various restrictions in the parking place.
The case of the Appellant is that the signage is unclear. It is submitted that there are four signs, which are all displaying different things and there should be one clear sign to avoid confusion.
The case of the authority is that the signage is compliant with the TSRGD 2016 and that the bay functions as a pay and display bay when it is not in use as a taxi rank – the wording on the second sign down states that “No stopping …. Sunday at any time, except taxis”
I find as fact that: the signage was compliant with the relevant regulations; the information provided by the four signs was (taken as a whole) too detailed for the relevant restrictions to be understood sufficiently clearly; the Appellant was confused by the signage at the parking place.
The authority must not only comply with the TSRGD 2016 but is also under a duty to act fairly in all the circumstances. The authority must therefore have signs which accord with the concept of fairness to the Appellant
It is necessary for the authority to put in place a simpler system of providing information in order for the information for the relevant restrictions to be sufficiently fully informative by only including information that can be reasonably easily understood.
I am unable to be satisfied that the authority has complied with its duty of fairness towards the Appellant by providing information in a sufficiently clear manner for the combination of the various restrictions in the parking place because I accept the evidence and submissions of the Appellant.

2230432016

I do not agree with Mr Chowdury that the signage for this bay is inadequate.
The presence of the bay markings and the single yellow line running through the bay alert motorists to check for the bay and line restrictions. Whilst it is certainly the case that the time plates adjacent to the bay require careful reading, I am satisfied on balance that they are clear in conveying the restrictions. There are three signs. The sign at the top is signage for a taxi stand for 3 taxis. Beneath that is the plate with the no stopping restrictions and the controlled hours with the exemption for taxis. The plate at the bottom then has the controlled hours for the pay and display/pay by phone parking which are outside of the hours when the no stopping restrictions apply. It is not uncommon to have a bay where there are different restrictions at different times. It is clear from the evidence that Mr Chowdhury's car was parked when the no stopping restriction applied.

2230415367

The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped on a taxi rank when in George Lane on 18 June 2023 at 20.16.
The Appellant believed thta he was parked lawfully and has criticised the signage at the location.
I have considered the evidence in this case and I find that the signage at this location, whilst compliant with the regulations, was overall inadequate and confusing.
There is an element of signage cluttering with four signs on the one pole, with the very top panel being illegible due to dust and dirt.


Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
« Reply #3 on: »
I've uploaded the PCN ticket. Are you still having problems viewing the picture of the road  sign ?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9weau0xw3a5t7dw6to9tn/PCNTicket.jpg?rlkey=76lfmsg573pp0jh8ozdghgjwr&st=049m3fh8&dl=0

So should I appeal and should I put in those case examples given in the appeal ? The numbers for each case do they have any relevance which the council will also be able to refer to ?

Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
« Reply #4 on: »
IMO, there's nothing improper about the signs as they comply exactly with regulatory requirements and signs manual examples.

1.—(1) A reference to a time, or to times, of the day may be shown as, or varied to, the following—

(a)a period of time expressed as “7.30 – 9.00 am”, “7 - 9 am”, “7.30 am – 6 pm”, “4 – 7 pm”, “4.00 – 6.30 pm”, “8 pm – 6 am”, “8 pm – 6 am next day” or any other time period and which may include the expression “Midnight”, “M’night”, “Midday” or “Noon” ;


IMO, starting with 'midnight' follows logically from stopping being prohibited until midnight on Sundays therefore the clock starts from 0001 on Mon. morning 

The form of the sign, single on the same post, is also permitted and IMO recommended.

Submit reps by all means but not before you've posted the back of the PCN pl.

Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
« Reply #5 on: »
Yes the no stopping times are consistent - my bad.

The two cases won I posted were on too much clutter. The other one lost says signs clear. I expect there are others refused on this basis. 

Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
« Reply #6 on: »
I'll try to post the back of the PCN tonight when I come back from work thx

The case numbers should I reference them in an appeal ? Do they have visibility of them ?

Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
« Reply #7 on: »
The case numbers are tribunal numbers and unique identifiers.

But we wouldn't usually recommend quoting cases in an informal challenge. Instead you'd pick up grounds such as sign clutter and confusion.

But they are bound to reject (twice) and it's pot luck if you get an adjudicator who buys the clutter.

There may be other grounds re the PCN.