3. Pcn argall way e10
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Pcn argall way e10
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Hi folks

I've turned right here countless times this is the first ticket.

https://ibb.co/gdYPDS1

I'll link to a YouTube video from the Pcn here

https://youtube.com/shorts/FAjiTw7ZvIM?si=ntU3dNrv09x4X_Wc

You'll see that when I went into the box to turn right the traffic was moving albeit slowly. When I was at the point of no return I could see there was a space for me to go into so went in to wait for the car coming towards me to go past. He then turns left (without indicating). We both go into the box at pretty much the same time.

I also see from the video there was probably enough space for me to be clear of the box anyway which is annoying.

I don't think I've done anything wrong here - it's a large junction and I cannot possibly be expected to guess whether the car coming towards me is going straight on or left!

Any thoughts gratefully received.
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #1 on: »
Post all of the PCN please
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #2 on: »
Hi there

The Pcn is in the link in the post. The other 3 pages are just about how to appeal etc
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #3 on: »


Quote
The other 3 pages are just about how to appeal etc

Please post the rest - there are often mistakes, sometimes fatal to the PCN, in the 'small print'.

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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #4 on: »
https://ibb.co/VmsZW4x

https://ibb.co/S6ZZM7W

https://ibb.co/bN9VmFF

Understood and thanks the other pages are above. Sorry if this isn't the best way but I am not good with computers?

I am wondering if it's worth mounting a defence to the alleged offence with the following

1) there was a gap when I went past the point of no return on entering the box

2) that gap became smaller when the car turned left instead of going straight on

3) notwithstanding that the cctv shows that I could have been clear of the box with the gap in front of me, however I stopped where i did to leave the crossing clear in front of me, there was a sufficient gap directly in front I could have gone into but thought I was clear of the box

Any good?
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #5 on: »
OK, so here is GSV for the location: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/efueXdrEDViZwnfJ7
Normally there is an exemption for turning right at a yellow box junction (YBJ), that allows you to wait in the box until you can make the turn when traffic in the opposite direction allows it. Here you were able to make the turn with no traffic in the opposite direction preventing you, (at least that's what your video shows), but couldn't exit the box due to stationary vehicles preventing you.  It would have actually been better if you had waited in the box with your indicators flashing, until you could make the turn. 
Whether an adjudicator would allow your case using the right turn exemption is not certain, in my opinion, but see what the others say.
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #6 on: »
Video:



This is basically the same as https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/yellow-box-junction-pcn/ and there's a draft here we can mostly recycle.

If you can you confirm the length of your car, for instance from the owner's handbook, I'll type something up for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #7 on: »
Thank you so very much for your reply and offer of help. I am very grateful.

The total length of the car from front bumper to back bumper is 4492mm

The car is unusual however because it has an enormous overhang over the rear wheels - the overhang past the back wheels is 1045mm.

So from front bumper to back wheels it's 3447mm which is the length to presumably see me clear of the box. Although you may feel we have to use the total length of the car of 4492mm.

The width of the car is required is 1493mm.

Thank you for any help you can provide.
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #8 on: »
Seems I mistakenly locked this thread earlier, apologies, - I think I have now unlocked it!
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #9 on: »
According to their video you enter the box at 1537, but the PCN quotes the offence time as 1538 (offence is causing vehicle to enter the box in such a way it subsequently stops due to stationary vehicles).  Contravention as stated therefore did not occur.

Regarding the video itself, it's one of those daft cases where a literal reading of the regulation suggests it's a contravention, but had the vehicle waited slap bang in the middle of the box it wouldn't be which seems perverse.  Hopefully CP's input will be helpful (in addition to my opening comment)
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #10 on: »
The time point is something I had not noticed so thank you. Would that really find traction at a hearing though and make the Pcn invalid in some way?

I have no idea how I can take measurements from the information and data I have to prove beyond doubt there was enough space for me to be clear of the box, even thought it is pretty clear that there is a decent wedge of space directly in front of my car. Looking at the back wheels in the box I would only need a few inches in front of me to prove it.

If anyone can help with that when they have a mo over the next few days I would be very grateful.
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #11 on: »
Any further thoughts before I try and cobble something together for this appeal?? I'd really like to add the measurements in for the gap in front of the car but I've got no bloody idea how to do it! Really grateful for a steer.
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #12 on: »
You've got until 15 November before the discount expires, so be a little more patient please.  We'll help you draft something.
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #13 on: »
IMO when read the regs say that it is the stopping which is the contravention not entering the box

11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
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Re: Pcn argall way e10
« Reply #14 on: »
I disagree.  What is the offence? Causing the vehicle to enter the box such that...

The test is a test of the drivers judgement in choosing to enter the box.  That judgement is exercised at the point of entry.  By the time they've stopped it's already too late.

That's also the reason that videos which don't show point of entry mean there's no evidence of the offence and generally win by default.
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