Author Topic: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN  (Read 2153 times)

0 Members and 459 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #15 on: »
Video:



The nearside sign appears to be angled away from the direction you would have been coming from, so you could not have seen it:



Personally I'd carry on and appeal, but obviously it's up to you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order


Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #17 on: »
Thanks CP

then sign angle does certainly help the case, though i think its impossible to see coming from that direction anyway. It's clearly not made for motorists coming from that direction.


Do you have any idea what they are talking about re: the advance warning? i can see that anywhere either and wonder if they are talking about if coming from another direction.

are we allowed to submit video footage to the tribunal?

I am tempted to continue the appeal but the double fee is annoying - am i correct in assuming if we lose at tribunal the full fee is payable?


Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote
am I correct in assuming if we lose at tribunal the full fee is payable?
Yes, but no more than that, there are no additional costs.

Essentially it is a double-or-quits gamble, the odds depending on how strong is an appellants case.



Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #19 on: »
Here is the advance warning sign. Clearly not a traffic sign and liable to be blocked by a parked high-sided vehicle
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NwmtHoGCCNQWxhrB9

Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #20 on: »
what do you mean by clearly not a traffic sign? anyway its strange - i was parked past the sign. are they saying i was supposed to see it before i parked and then remember it say an hour later when exiting? i honestly didnt see it.

even the other, not nearside sign turned away, when you pull out and turn, you are only head on after u decide to make the turn so unless u look up and to the right at that very moment (which noone would do unless prompted) i stand by the fact that noone would see it.

how strong do you think the case is?


Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #21 on: »
what do you mean by clearly not a traffic sign? anyway its strange - i was parked past the sign. are they saying i was supposed to see it before i parked and then remember it say an hour later when exiting? i honestly didnt see it.

even the other, not nearside sign turned away, when you pull out and turn, you are only head on after u decide to make the turn so unless u look up and to the right at that very moment (which noone would do unless prompted) i stand by the fact that noone would see it.

how strong do you think the case is?
A traffic sign is what is defined in the manual of signs, the TSRGD (Traffic Signs & General Directions 2022).
Whilst an adjudicator must consider that the council have put up a warning, he must also judge the council on whether the signs they have put up are sufficient to convey the restriction. This advance warning is mounted very high up, but a motorist driving slowly along is looking for a parking spot and in all likelihood would not notice the sign.

So it's really up to you, take the double-or-quits gamble at London Tribunals or pay the discount if on offer. I don't think there is a slam-dunk win here, but a reasonable chance of success. In cases like this that revolve around sign adequacy, which is subjective, much depends on the adjudicator you get on the day.

Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #22 on: »
Also the advance warning sign is on the left hand side of the road by the shops. Why would a driver wanting to park on the right hand side eb looking up at the left hand side and as you said the reason i parked on the right is there was no space on the left, and therefore the sign was quite possibly obscured by parked vehicles anyway.

it seems crazy that they dont put road marking signs and a sign on the opposite side of the road when you turn- or at least have a sign that faces the way drivers are coming in the first instance not up and to the right.

anyway have decided to appeal so will see how it goes.

they didnt even allow me the opportunity to submit any medical evidence, just rejected and due to the nature of the contravention there was no opportunity for informal appeal.

Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #23 on: »
just to update you all that Harrow have not contested by tribunal appeal and cancelled the PCN on the basis that the sign was not compliant on the day !

Am i allowed to ask why it wasnt compliant?! I doubt it ever was and wonder if they thought losing at tribunal would set precedent?


Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #24 on: »
I've also become a victim to this contravention, mainly due to the inadequate signage which is incredibly hard for a reasonable driver to see.

I'm challenging the PCN. Since the notice I've been back to the service road and seen multiple others carry out the same manoeuvre without realising.

I've submitted a FOI request to the council regarding the PCN, happy to share the results.

Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #25 on: »
I've also become a victim to this contravention, mainly due to the inadequate signage which is incredibly hard for a reasonable driver to see.

I'm challenging the PCN. Since the notice I've been back to the service road and seen multiple others carry out the same manoeuvre without realising.

I've submitted a FOI request to the council regarding the PCN, happy to share the results.


If you need advice about your own case please to start your own thread. By all means reference this thread in your own post.

Re: PCN 50R contravention prohibited right turn - DID NOT SEE SIGN
« Reply #26 on: »
I've also become a victim to this contravention, mainly due to the inadequate signage which is incredibly hard for a reasonable driver to see.

I'm challenging the PCN. Since the notice I've been back to the service road and seen multiple others carry out the same manoeuvre without realising.

I've submitted a FOI request to the council regarding the PCN, happy to share the results.

Welcome aboard vipninja.

I expect you'll win this one easily if the signage is still the same, but I do know one rule you definitely have broken!

... the forum rule that says "one case, one thread" (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/house-rules/ ).

Please start a new thread for your PCN and we'll be happy to help, and I for one will be very interested to see the FOI response.
 
Like Like x 1 View List