3. PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
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PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
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Hi

I got a ticket last night for being parked on Poplars Road E17, its a no through road with bollards at the end preventing cars to get onto Lea Bridge road.

I had parked outside number 57 on double yellows ( see second pic) and displayed a blue badge, it was just inches away from the bays which were all taken.  I set my timer and left.

I got a ticket saying it is restricted road however my car was sandwiched between 2 signs (see link below) one said 'Controlled Zone 8am - 6.30pm' and the other further down was one saying permit holders only (see attachment) 

There were NO signs saying it was restricted or no loading. The warden however did take a picture of a sign on the corner of the road which is facing the main road saying no loading. As you can see from google maps that's on Lea Bridge road and has a further 2 more posts saying the same thing in in close proximity with bright yellow lines on the floor. This is expected as there a row of shops there.

It seems the warden is trying to apply that sign to Poplars road.  Can anyone advise how to to best appeal? Even if that sign was meant for Poplars road its so far away that its impossible for anyone to see it. The road becomes 1 lane at the end so no car can actually go there as there so space to do a U turn and even if you were to walk up, you wont see it as the road bends to the right whilst the pavement is straight.

The warden did me fav too but taking pics showing there are no yellow lines on the curb thus how is anyone meant to know its restricted?


https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5765616,-0.0117954,3a,75y,69.25h,88.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKVjIBAGkfGDJMjTAikwC3g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

https://imgur.com/a/sYwGSNP













« Last Edit: July 28, 2024, 04:09:45 pm by mkdon »
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #1 on: »
You haven't posted the PCN, so please do so, all sides.
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #2 on: »
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #3 on: »
Please get and post the council photos. Gsv shows double kerb blips but they seem in poor condition. We need to see exactly where you were parked 
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #4 on: »
https://imgur.com/a/J9rm8Pc

https://imgur.com/a/5SBprKy

https://imgur.com/a/4dG29P0

As you can see, are are no lines on curb in the pics the council took
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #5 on: »
Well, sorry, but I see one on the first picture in your listing ! And here they are in GSV dated April 2022.

Yes, they are worn, but visible, so I think you'd struggle to convince an adjudicator.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2024, 06:50:10 pm by Incandescent »
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #6 on: »
But shouldn't they have to be clear? The picture the warden took is even more fainter than the GSV, you can barely see anything.

Also the sign they got is not even on the road I was parked on. As far as I was aware I was on just double yellows immediately after the last parking bay.
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #7 on: »
The kerb blips must be sufficiently clear to a motorist thinking of parking there. Here is the sign for No Loading: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4BKHkUTNfwpDtPPW9

You have the right to take them to London Tribunal on the worn kerb blips. If you do this, then you really need to prove they are virtually non-existent, but the photos you have posted do show them. They are not expected to be in perfect condition. My view is that you don't have a strong case, but others may differ, so wait a bit to see what they say, but don't miss the deadline to pay or submit reps.
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #8 on: »
I've drafted the following. Is it OK to send as my initial appeal

I wish to appeal against this pcn due to lack of/poor quality signage.

I had turned onto Poplars and was unable to see any spaces  in the parking pays

The only signs visible were the ones saying 'permit holders only' and  'Controlled Zone'

As I had my son who is autistic with me, I parked on the double yellows and displayed his blue badge.  This was adjacent to the last parking bay.

As your own pictures show, there are no yellow lines on the pavement to indicate it's a loading bay

Furthermore the picture of the 'No Loading' signage is at the very end of the road on the junction with Lea Leabridge Road and only visible for those driving on Lea Bridge road.

I thus believe this ticket should be cancelled due to no signage and/or lack of clear signage due to there being no yellow lines on the curb on Poplars road and the signage with the 'No Loading"  being on Lea Bridge road and only visible for those driving on Lea Bridge road.

Regards
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on July 28, 2024, 07:09:13 pm
The kerb blips must be sufficiently clear to a motorist thinking of parking there. Here is the sign for No Loading: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4BKHkUTNfwpDtPPW9

You have the right to take them to London Tribunal on the worn kerb blips. If you do this, then you really need to prove they are virtually non-existent, but the photos you have posted do show them. They are not expected to be in perfect condition. My view is that you don't have a strong case, but others may differ, so wait a bit to see what they say, but don't miss the deadline to pay or submit reps.

Yeh il wait but if you see the pics the warden took, they are even more faded than ones on GSV. It shouldn't have to be you only notice them if they are pointed out to you. They should be easily visible for anyone to see.  The sign showing no loading is by the no entry sign into the road I was parked on, even if you wanted to enter you can't because of the bollards so how do they expect anyone to read that sign? Its obvious the sign is for lea bridge not Poplars road.
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #10 on: »
YOu might care to use this, or parts of it: -

Dear Sirs

Re PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at <hr:mn> on Poplars Road
 
I deny liability for the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, due to totally inadequate signage

I was accompanying my autistic son who is a Blue Badge holder, and finding no parking available at the top of Poplars Road, parked just beyond the bay on the double-yellow lines as a Blue Badge holder is entitled to do.

On return to the car, I found the PCN and after walking around, found a No Loading sign approximately 25 metres away, on a lamppost by the main road where the now-blocked Poplars Road joins Lea Bridge Road.  However, there were no visible yellow kerb markings to indicate there is a loading restriction as well as the double-yellow lines. Had these been visible, I would not have parked there. The council are under a duty to maintain signs and lines so that they are clear to motorists. Here they have not done so.

I therefore request that the PCN be immediately cancelled, and the council suspend enforcement until the carriageway markings are repainted.

YOurs faithfully
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on July 28, 2024, 11:29:48 pm
YOu might care to use this, or parts of it: -

Dear Sirs

Re PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at <hr:mn> on Poplars Road
 
I deny liability for the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, due to totally inadequate signage

I was accompanying my autistic son who is a Blue Badge holder, and finding no parking available at the top of Poplars Road, parked just beyond the bay on the double-yellow lines as a Blue Badge holder is entitled to do.

On return to the car, I found the PCN and after walking around, found a No Loading sign approximately 25 metres away, on a lamppost by the main road where the now-blocked Poplars Road joins Lea Bridge Road.  However, there were no visible yellow kerb markings to indicate there is a loading restriction as well as the double-yellow lines. Had these been visible, I would not have parked there. The council are under a duty to maintain signs and lines so that they are clear to motorists. Here they have not done so.

I therefore request that the PCN be immediately cancelled, and the council suspend enforcement until the carriageway markings are repainted.

YOurs faithfully

Thank you.
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #12 on: »
Hi

The council finally emailed me, they rejected my initial appeal (see response below).



They said I can make a a Representation Notice to Owner, how do I do this? Isn't this same as my initial appeal?



https://imgur.com/a/3P5Ctjc

https://imgur.com/a/vfXxtvm
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #13 on: »
You submitted an informal challenge to the PCN, and got the usual brush-off. If you want to take the matter further, you now have to wait for the Notice to Owner, and submit formal representations against it. However, as they say in their reply, the full £130 will be payable if they refuse these reps. On the downside for them though, is if they do reject your formal reps and don't re-offer the discount, it becomes a complete no-brainer for you to take them to London Tribunals because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs whatsoever.

So basically, if you are sufficiently aggreived, wait for the NtO and submit a formal representation. The NtO is sent to the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the vehicle. Is this your vehicle and is the address up-to-date, because if you don't receive the NtO it will be game over.
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Re: PCN 02 - Waltham Forest - No signs and wrong road
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on August 12, 2024, 09:51:50 am
You submitted an informal challenge to the PCN, and got the usual brush-off. If you want to take the matter further, you now have to wait for the Notice to Owner, and submit formal representations against it. However, as they say in their reply, the full £130 will be payable if they refuse these reps. On the downside for them though, is if they do reject your formal reps and don't re-offer the discount, it becomes a complete no-brainer for you to take them to London Tribunals because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs whatsoever.

So basically, if you are sufficiently aggreived, wait for the NtO and submit a formal representation. The NtO is sent to the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the vehicle. Is this your vehicle and is the address up-to-date, because if you don't receive the NtO it will be game over.

Yes my vehicle and address is up to date. I will appeal it once i get my NtO, theyre trying their luck. how can they only have 1 faded yellow line for the entire 30 plus meters. also why is the sign ( on lea bridge road) no repeated the entire length of the no loading area. they should have 1 at either end so we can see it
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