Author Topic: Southwark, Code 01 Parked in a restricted street during prescribed, The Castle leisure centre.  (Read 503 times)

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stamfordman

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The key is that Southwark has designated its leisure centre car parks with off-street orders and you have been issued with an on-street PCN with the location of a leisure centre. The pictures below certainly look like you were in the centre and not on-street.

If you need to back this up then it is assisted alighting not loading that is the exemption.

This may be the relevant notice of order:

2. The effect of the order will be to provide off-street car parking controls in car parks located within or adjacent to CAMBERWELL LEISURE CENTRE, THE CASTLE LEISURE CENTRE, DULWICH LEISURE CENTRE, PECKHAM PULSE, SEVEN ISLANDS LEISURE CENTRE and SURREY DOCKS WATERSPORTS CENTRE:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2522269



« Last Edit: August 12, 2024, 05:13:49 pm by stamfordman »
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cupotea

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Morning.

I have finally had a response from Southwark Parking to my representation. I thought I kept a copy but I can't find it but essentially I responded to say:

- I had been dropping my daughter off for her swimming lesson, referencing "assisted boarding and alighting", which they discounted.
- I provided links https://streets.appyway.com/southwark and https://geomap.southwark.gov.uk/connect/analyst/mobile/#/main, which both show yellow lines ending outside the leisure centre but they only reference gmaps in their response.
- I included the link to the Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2522269 which they said have no bearing on this.

Just to note that I noticed my first name was spelt incorrectly on my V5 which I hadn't noticed previously and which I have since updated so although they reference it in this letter, as I responded with the correct spelling and they flagged this, it's an error on my part not theirs.

Below is their response.





Any suggestions?

Thanks.

stamfordman

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This looks like rubbish squared by Southwark - assisted alighting/boarding is an exemption to a no waiting restriction (it isn't no stopping) and this is just flat out wrong by them.
And are they really saying their off-street order doesn't apply in the leisure centre? Where does it apply?

They are trying to buy you off with the discount but I would take this to the tribunal but wait for other views.

cupotea

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Thanks for the response. It seems their argument is it didn't look like anyone was alighting (as I didn't leave the doors open and engine running?) and they don't believe it's off-street, however I can't find any evidence it is a street (you'd think they would reference the street name in the ticket if it was?). They only refer to the google maps picture I provided but I also provided snips and links from 2 other mapping sites that Southwark themselves use that show double yellows ending outside of the car park. Below are the snips - I've highlighted where I was parked and you can see where the double yellows end on Brook Drive. Yes, there are double yellows marked within the carpark itself but as I say it doesn't appear to be a street but an off-street car park:





Would be good to get a second opinion before I go all the way but appreciate your input.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2024, 10:38:35 am by cupotea »

stamfordman

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This thread has examples an assisted alighting/boarding - Southwark is wrong and badly so. Assistance is an exemption but it must take no longer than necessary.

I also reckon there's something in their off-street order for this location than renders this not on-street. They would have to supply evidence to satisfy an adjudicator.

H C Andersen

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OP, the council are wrong, end of. Read your Highway Code - Traffic Signs.

Some while ago, Cp posted various tribunal decisions on the issue, but second-guessing still abounds!!

In your case IMO it does NOT matter whether an adjudicator accepts your account(that is escorting your 8-year old daughter into the leisure centre and returning immediately), the council are damned by these statements in the NOR:

'...I can confirm that area your vehicle wa(sic) parked in is classed as an on-street location..'

'You have stated that you were under the impression that the practice of assisted alighting is permitted. I can confirm that dropping off passengers for any length of time would not exempt you from the rules that are in force.'

IMO, just register your appeal.

Contravention did not occur;
Procedural impropriety.

You rely upon your formal representations and procedural matters arising from the Notice of Rejection of Representations.

You would add to your formal reps(called 'further representations') which you would submit later after seeing the council's case summary(you could do it now because the case summary is not primary evidence whereas the NoR is, however, I've no doubt that the council might embellish its stupidity in the CS, so wait and bring whatever other damning comments they might make to the adjudicator's attention).

If I were you, I would want this to go the full distance so that you can get the adjudicator's decision in writing on the fundamental issue of what you do on a regular basis being lawful. This should ensure that the council don't revert to their old ways but this wouldn't prevent them issuing PCNs because all a CEO would know is that there's an unattended vehicle on DYL, but at least you could prepare yourself with a standard challenge which includes the decision.
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stamfordman

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This appeal was won on the alighting exemption. Shame the on-street status not tested.

---------------------

Case Details
Case reference   2240467447
Appellant   
Authority   London Borough of Southwark
VRM   DE16 KGG
PCN Details
PCN   JK13368358
Contravention date   16 May 2024
Contravention time   17:27:00
Contravention location   THE CASTLE LEISURE CENTRE
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Parked restricted street during prescribed hours
Referral date   -
Decision Date   10 Jan 2025
Adjudicator   Anju Kaler
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons   
The agreed facts are that the vehicle was at the stated location on double yellow lines and a Penalty Charge Notice was issued.

The Appellant says he was in a hurry to drop off his 8 year old daughter for a swimming lesson and he accompanied her into the leisure centre.

the Civil Enforcement Officer observed the vehicle for 2.37 minutes before issuing the Penalty Charge Notice and saw no sign of activity.

Setting off is permitted on double yellow lines, as is accompanying a vulnerable passenger, such as a young child. That could take a few minutes if a child has to be left at a safe place in care of others. I am satisfied the exemption applied and so allow the appeal.

H C Andersen

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Well done for sticking with it

16 May to 11 Jan, 8 months give or take.

8 months during which you might have changed your habits for fear of falling foul of the council.

8 months, for the best part of which the council was a judge in its own cause.

8 months during which their ignorance of or, even worse, knowledge of but unwillingness to apply, the law has held sway in Southwark.

What do you think they'll do now? Carpet, under and sweep spring to mind.

You might want to leave matters as they are and no-one could blame you. Alternatively, you might want to bring this to the attention of someone in authority and hope that further training is given.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 02:38:12 pm by H C Andersen »
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stamfordman

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The OP could write to Southwark asking where the off-street order applies according to the leisure centre plan.

H C Andersen

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With respect, the finding 'Setting off is permitted on double yellow lines, as is accompanying a vulnerable passenger, such as a young child..' surely only applies only if the DYL are on-street TSRGD markings. If the OP argues that they were parked off-street then this finding couldn't apply IMO unless the order created sich an exemption.

cupotea

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Thank you both for your help with this (and anyone else, difficult to see on my phone). Very frustrating all things considered. I think it's really underhand the way they go about these things considering the info I provided. Fyi in the massive evidence pack I was sent, printed in colour and in duplicate (great use of my council tax), they themselves stated that the parking areas at all southwark health clubs are classed as off-street, as we had informed them, and therefore had setting down not been allowed I still would've had them on that technicality. As suggested I do feel like complaining but not sure I've got the energy, I imagine it would be months of waiting and just fall on deaf ears.

Thanks again, it's much appreciated.

stamfordman

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Yes it's an odd situation - a non-existent exemption seems to have been allowed for a non-existent restriction.

Please keep Southwark's pack if you can - may be useful in another case.

H C Andersen

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OP, had setting down not been allowed ...it isn't unless the parking places order states that it is, the exemption applies to on-street waiting restrictions not off-street conditions. IMO, the adjudicator misapplied the law, but there were are.

As stamfordman put it, a non-existent exemption to a non-existent restriction.