Author Topic: Haringey Council, 47J - stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand - Muswell Hill Broadway, London  (Read 1197 times)

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Hi there,
I got another PCN recently (sigh), and would appreciate any help on how to appeal it.

- PCN No: ZN19178822
- Vehicle Registration Number: VN69 AZP
- Location: Muswell Hill Broaday N10 (outside Nos. 243/290)
- Date and time of contravention: 07/11/2025 20:43
- Google Street View: link

I've included the PCN letter and some additional photos on DropBox (link)

I pulled over into the initial section of a bus stop and waited there for three minutes while my son went to pick up a takeaway.

The only potential grounds for appeal I can think of is that the restriction sign is not visible. The sign is attached fairly high up (7 feet high approx)to the bus stop post itself, the post is right by the road and the sign faces out into the road, so it is not possible to see it without pulling up next to the bus stop post. So, I wouldn't have been able to see the sign when I pulled over, because I pulled over back near to the start of the bus stop. If the experts at FTLA can advise on this or any other grounds for appeal I would greatly appreciate it.

Also, I don't know if this is relevant but the video evidence starts off by showing another location, before cutting over to the video of my car in Muswell Hill Broadway.

Kind Regards

Tom





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This bus stop is over 40 metres long (or nearly 44 yards), so just having a single sign at its end is inadequate. The broad yellow line tells you it is a bus stop, but not whether it is restricted or not. Councils are under a duty to erect adequate signage of a restriction; here they haven't. If they'd put a sign at the start of the bus stop as well as the one by the shelter, you'd be bang-to-rights, but I think here it is arguable. There have been successful appeals on this subject, and hopefully others on here can point you to a typical case.

A London bus can be up to 11 metres long, so this bus stop takes 4 buses.

No hope on the contravention in my view although unusually the bus stop has a timed restriction - mostly they are 24/7.

Over to Hippo for any other issues.


« Last Edit: November 15, 2025, 11:32:48 pm by stamfordman »

I'll draft something later - the snooker is on!

I am super busy with high end stuff at the moment (High Court and serious complaint re the C.A. and Lord Chancellor as well as cases) but will dig out appropriate representations later. Tomorrow a.m. at the latest.

Also, Haringey do watch the internet! So I may send it privately. I have a serious scrap with them at the end of the month.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2025, 06:12:39 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Length of the bay

The bus stop clearway exceeds ???metres in length — in
fact, it measures just over ???— yet contains only one upright sign,
positioned at the far end. This fails to meet visibility and placement
requirements under the Traffic Signs Manual (TSM) and TSRGD.
•       
TSM Chapter 1, paragraph 5.4.4 advises:
“Regulatory signs must be placed as near as practicable to the start of a
restriction.”
•       
TSM Chapter 3, paragraph 13.24.9
specifically addresses longer bus bays: “Where the bus stop marking has been
extended to accommodate two or more buses, it might be preferable to mount the
sign close to the beginning of the bay. In these circumstances an additional
sign, mounted parallel to the kerb, might be required near the centre of the
bay.” 
 

Orientation and visibility

The upright sign is not clearly visible even from 5–10 metres away, and its placement fails to convey a
clear restriction as required by statutory guidance.
 
• TSM Chapter 3, 13.24.9: “Upright signs that indicate a prohibition of stopping normally
face oncoming traffic as it is an offence to stop to read the sign.”  This sign is angled away from the line of
approach and cannot be read safely or clearly by a driver. It therefore fails to comply with TSM guidance and does not serve its intended purpose.
 • TSM Chapter3, section 1.8.2, Table 1-1 – Minimum clear visibility distances: “For roads
with speeds up to 20 mph, the minimum clear visibility distance in a 20mph zone
is 45 metres. This sign is not visible from even 5 to 10 metres away, let alone
45 metres. This directly contradicts the visibility standards set out in TSM
and severely limits the sign’s ability to provide timely notice of a
restriction to drivers. This failure renders the restriction inadequately
conveyed and, consequently, unenforceable in law.

Cases in support

• Matthew Mathai (2240426053): Appeal allowed due to
length of bus stop clearway, only one sign and signage not clearly visible. The
importance of adequately visible signage in bus stop clearway was emphasised in
Sean Hurley v London Borough of Camden (2210017951, 16 November 2020) to which
I have had regard. … The single sign is placed towards the very end of the
clearway, from the perspective of a motorist approaching it. There is a very
considerable distance from the start of the clearway to the sign itself. The
sign would barely be visible, if at all, from there. The guidance in the
Traffic Signs Manual has not been heeded. Based on the evidence in this case
and with that guidance in mind, I do not find, on the balance of probabilities,
that the signage was adequate.
 •
Sean Hurley (2210017951): Appeal allowed due to inadequate signage ‘not in the
correct position and visible’. Its visibility is even more important where
the prohibition is simply on “stopping” and where the motorist will therefore
have very little time to see it, let alone look for it”
• Rafiuddin Syed (2240376545): First, the
Appellant's representative has drawn my attention to the decision of
Adjudicator Walsh, case (2240426053) I find that this case is applicable to the
one I am deciding now, the Adjudicator recorded as follows when citing from
Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual at 13.2.9, which states that: The
sign should normally be located near the centre of the bay or mounted on the
post that supports the bus stop sign to diagram 970, 973.2 or 973.3 (S11-2-76
and 77). Where the bus stop marking has been extended to accommodate two or
more buses, it might be preferable to mount the sign close to the beginning of
the bay. In these circumstances an additional sign, mounted parallel to the
kerb, might be required near the centre of the bay." “this bus stop
clearway is notably long at 150ft in length. In those circumstances, the
Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3, para 13.24.9), suggests a sign in the middle
of the clearway or two signs, to ensure that the sign can readily be seen by a
motorist. In this case, I find on the balance of probabilities that the single
sign is placed towards the very end of the clearway, from the perspective of a
motorist approaching it. There is a very considerable distance from the start
of the clearway to the sign itself. The sign would barely be visible, if at
all, from there. The guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual has not been heeded.
Based on the evidence in this case and with that guidance in mind, I do not
find, on the balance of probabilities, that the signage was adequate. In those
circumstances the contravention is not proved. Thirdly, the bus stop in this
case is 138ft and the sign plate is at the far end.

Apologies for layout as pressed for time.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Hi @Incandescent, @Hippocrates, @stamfordman,

Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it (sorry for the delay in responding, did not check for responses). I will write up an email in line with your guidance.

Much appreciated

Tom