Author Topic: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond  (Read 728 times)

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Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
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PCN: RT40732021
Numberplate: OY60GJX

I got a ticket at old deer car park back in August. Turns out I only took (though I swear it’s the only thing the ticket machine printed!) the receipt for my parking, not the actual ticket itself.

I was in a rush and thought it was a bit weird but just displayed it on my dash as all the info was there. Came back to a ticket. Got home and immediately contested it with photos of the receipt I had and proof of payment leaving my account etc and got an auto email back saying not to do anything until I’d heard from them.

Well, I’ve just had a notice through asking for the full £60, is this me ‘hearing from them’ and they have dismissed my contest? Or just an auto letter sent despite having a contest in place on the system?

Logging into Richmond.gov and there is nothing on the page about the contest at all. Anyone been through this and able to shed light?

:)

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 06:37:30 pm by RosyWhyte2 »

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Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #1 on: »
No what you have is a notice to owner. The regulations do not require the council to respond to your first informal challenge but they must consider it but from now on you must follow the rules and pay of make representations and if you do that then they have 56 days to respond

Post the PCN and the NTO here and also the receipt
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Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #2 on: »
Thanks so much for replying, I am little confused sorry!
Just to clarify, they don't have to do anything about my first challenge, but if I pay the fine now, I have 56 days to challenge them again?

I have added the photos on my original post. PCN number RT36290790

Thanks again :)

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #3 on: »
Please post all sides of PCN and remaining sides of NtO.

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #4 on: »
Images attached

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Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #5 on: »
Final images attached, many thanks

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Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks so much for replying, I am little confused sorry! but if I pay the fine now, I have 56 days to challenge them again?

I have added the photos on my original post. PCN number RT36290790
Just to clarify, they don't have to do anything about my first challenge,

Thanks again :)
No, NO, NO !!!
Paying closes the case and you cannot then appeal. If you do submit representations instead of paying they must respond with 56 days of receiving your representations. If they don't you win by default.

Your informal challenge MUST be considered by law. It is however vague on responses. Typical English law passed by a supine parliament. Do you wonder why this country is in such a mess ?

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #7 on: »
Thanks for the clarification, just to confirm, does the email attached count as correspondence from them? And they have 56 days from this auto reply or I win by default? Does the Notice To Owner count as a response?

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Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #8 on: »
Thanks for the clarification, just to confirm, does the email attached count as correspondence from them? And they have 56 days from this auto reply or I win by default? Does the Notice To Owner count as a response?

The Notice to Owner basically supersedes everything that came before, you must now respond to it by 8 October 2023 at the latest. Once you have made a formal representation against the notice to owner, the council has 56 days to serve a response.

Here's a draft:

Dear London Borough of Richmond upon Thames,

I would like to request cancellation of penalty charge RT40732021. When I pulled the ticket out of the pay and display machine, I thought it looked a bit unusual but I just displayed it on my dash as all the info was there. It might be that the machine was meant to provide a separate pay and display ticket, but I could only display what was available to me.

However I would point out that the document provided by your pay and display machine confirms I made payment of £16.80 at 9:32 am on 8 August 2023, and this is the correct fee to park for 24 hours, I refer you to the image at (link) which confirms this.

It follows that when the penalty charge notice was issued at 12:39 pm on the same day my car was covered by a parking session so the council has not suffered any loss, there was no abuse of the parking facilities, and the mischief the regulations are aimed at did not occur.

Furthermore, having reviewed Article 7 of The London Borough of Richmond upon Thames (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2011 I see the ticket I displayed fulfills all the criteria required, therefore the contravention did not occur in any event.

In light of the above the council should cancel the penalty charge.

Yours faithfully,

Where I've put (link) above, replace that with the link I will send you in a private message and do not click on that link yourself. The reason is that if you get a notice of rejection and the click count is still zero, we can prove a failure to consider, which is a procedural impropriety. If the notice of rejection also says they've carefully considered all of the evidence, we can also prove that they've lied.

The link redirects to https://imgur.com/a/99GwLFt which is just a scaled-up version of the image you posted above.

Also the council website often has a grossly inadequate character limit for you to make representations, so we generally advise that you put the representation in a PDF file and then you can just upload it as an attachment.

While we wait for the council's response, I would like to get the machine maintenance logs. As you can see from here the whole car park is mapped by google street view, therefore please navigate to the exact machine that you used and then post a link to it on here (I don't want to trawl through all the logs for all the machines in the car park if I don't have to). We might as well try and find out if there was a fault with the machine.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 10:13:54 am by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #9 on: »
Just got The London Borough of Richmond upon Thames (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2011, looking at article 7:

(6) Subject to the provisions of the next following paragraph, the parking charges referred to in paragraph (1) of this Article shall be payable in any parking place specified in Schedule 1 by the insertion of an appropriate coin or coins in a ticket machine provided in such parking place and payment of the charge for a vehicle left in a parking place specified in Schedule 1 shall be indicated by the issue by the ticket machine of a numbered ticket indicating the charge paid, the date and time of expiry and by the display of that ticket on the vehicle in the manner specified in paragraph (9) of this Article. The ticket shall be valid from the time and date of issue up to the time and date of expiry indicated on the ticket.

(7)The parking charges referred to in paragraph (1) of this Article may, as an alternative to the last preceding paragraph, be payable in any parking place specified in Schedule 1 if the driver of a vehicle inserts an approved card into a ticket machine and, if required, enters identification numbers on a key pad so as to complete a transaction for the payment or deferral of payment of the parking charge by electronic means as indicated in the Act of 1984. The indication that the charge has been paid or deferred shall be by the issue of a numbered ticket and the validity of that ticket shall all be as provided for in the last preceding paragraph.


The ticket you displayed matches all the requirements: it was issued by the ticket machine, it's a numbered ticket indicating that the charge has been paid, it indicates (albeit indirectly) the time and date of expiry (i.e. 24 hours after the date of issue), and it indicates which way it must be displayed, therefore the contravention did not occur.

I have revised the draft above to take this into account.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 10:14:23 am by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #10 on: »
Sadly the receipt does not meet all the requirements.


As stated in the order, the requirement is to display a ticket produced by the machine which shows the '....date and time of expiry'. The receipt only allows the time of expiry to be deduced or calculated, it is not displayed.

The authority's argument, as regards taking this as proof, would likely be that because it doesn't carry the VRM then drivers trying to be clever could place the actual ticket in one car and the receipt in another and get 2 for the price of one.

I think it's worthwhile including the point but accept that although the expiry time is not shown it is very easy to deduce.

Your other substantive defence as regards the evidence we've seen is:
'Penalty exceeded .....circumstances of the case'. This follows from the fact that the ONLY prior correspondence received by you was an undertaking to hold the penalty at the discount until they replied '..your case will be placed on hold until your hear from us'
But as far as you are concerned you didn't, therefore it's their burden to prove they did.

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #11 on: »
Thank you so much for all of this, it really is so kind of you all! I will be compiling an email and sending it today, i just wanted to confirm that the parking@richmond.gov.uk is the email you would all suggest to message? Apologies if this is an obvious question, i just dont want to waste any of the time you have put into this for me and send it to the wrong place! Thanks so much again :)

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #12 on: »
https://goo.gl/maps/XzXuAXjgTehPvLfW6

link to the machine I used, I have also attached a screenshot of it in case the link does not work! Thank you so much again :)

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« Last Edit: September 12, 2023, 11:58:16 pm by cp8759 »

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #13 on: »
I suggest you post a draft of your reps here first.

Would you pl check your junk mail to see if a substantive reply to your initial reps was sent by email. Despite the regs not obligating a written response, their reply does, so not getting a written response is an issue.

Pl also confirm that it's your name on the NTO (OPs tend to say 'I have received' which can mean a variety of things).

The fact remains that the driver did not comply with the requirements of the order. But then again if, as you say, you displayed what it produced then you were unable to comply, did all you could and the fault lies with the council's machine. Alternatively, given that all details were shown except the expiry time which could easily be deduced then exercising discretion also comes into play.

Re: Parking ticket in Old Deer Car Park Richmond
« Reply #14 on: »
There was no fault logged with the machine and I got this PCN data back:

01/08/2023: 5 PCNs
02/08/2023: 3 PCNs
03/08/2023: 10 PCNs
04/08/2023: 6 PCNs
05/08/2023: 8 PCNs
06/08/2023: 9 PCNs
07/08/2023: 9 PCNs
08/08/2023: 10 PCNs
09/08/2023: 5 PCNs
10/08/2023: 2 PCNs
11/08/2023: 4 PCNs

This strongly suggests there was either a one-off or intermittent fault, or the machine printed the other ticket and you just didn't notice. We definitely can't show that there was a problem with the machine (which doesn't mean that there wasn't, we just can't show that there was).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 03:49:47 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order