Author Topic: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01  (Read 3739 times)

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Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #30 on: »
Quote
after I signed some paperwork.

What was this paperwork?

Were you given a copy?

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #31 on: »
But where does it say under the parking regulations that I am not liable.

Here!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/6/made

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #32 on: »
Quote
after I signed some paperwork.

What was this paperwork?

Were you given a copy?

Hi John

I'll try to get a copy of it.

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #33 on: »
But where does it say under the parking regulations that I am not liable.

Here!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/6/made

Much obliged!

In 6(2)(b), the person (“P”) is Auxillis, correct? If so, it does not make any reference to the driver (me) not being liable.

I don't know whether Auxillis had signed with Athlon a statement of liability acknowledging liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any road traffic contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement. But I signed with Auxillis such statement.

Please bear with me. I am trying to understand the nitty-gritty of this so that I am prepared to argue my case before the adjudicator.

So all these people who hire cars from companies who are not really a hire company, pay the PCNs because the hirer got them to sign a statement of liability, and LAs accepted the hirer Reps when technically they should not.

If I win the appeal on procedural impropriety, then the LA cannot chase back Auxillis because they have already accepted their Reps.

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #34 on: »
It's not procedural impropriety, it's 'I was not the owner'.

The 'owner' is a term defined in the Act and regs. It has nothing to do with ownership in the normal sense of the word, it's a legal construction.

As I understand it, you were not the owner at the material time because you were not 'P' because there was no hiring agreement, as defined, and you were not the hirer of the car.

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #35 on: »
Hi

Attached is the Hire Agreement I signed with Auxillis.

I would very much appreciated if you could draft my final appeal statement, three points:

CPZ sign, prolonge time taken and the vehicle ownership.

Thanks in anticipation.

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« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 12:08:57 am by mitaab »

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #36 on: »
Trying to get to the bottom of this is proving very difficult.

When is your hearing? You might need to apply for postponement.

As I now understand matters:

Athlone are the registered keeper. Theirs is the NTO referred to in the authority's summary (you questioned this date but you were confusing it with the NTO to Auxilis).

Athlone and Auxilis have a standard agreement with the former being the registered keeper and lease company, the latter(Auxilis) being a hire company.

Now it gets murky, but I think the following is correct..

You have a car(nothing to do with this issue directly) which for some reason was involved in an accident and your unknown insurance company arranged for Auxilis to provide a vehicle to you.

This was the vehicle involved in the contravention and it came into your possession solely because your insurer paid Auxilis to do so.

PCN - to you. Unsuccessful reps.
First NTO -  to Athlone who made reps to 'transfer liability', presumably 'we are a hire company and hirer(Auxilis) has signed an agreement accepting liability etc.

Authority accept these reps and serve NTO no. 2 on Auxilis as hirer.

They then make reps on grounds they are a hire company.

These are accepted.

You receive NTO no. 3

You make unsuccessful reps.

Your insurer pays the bill for the hire costs associated with your possession of the car.

Is this correct??

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #37 on: »
Trying to get to the bottom of this is proving very difficult.

When is your hearing? You might need to apply for postponement.

As I now understand matters:

Athlone are the registered keeper. Theirs is the NTO referred to in the authority's summary (you questioned this date but you were confusing it with the NTO to Auxilis).

Athlone and Auxilis have a standard agreement with the former being the registered keeper and lease company, the latter(Auxilis) being a hire company.

Now it gets murky, but I think the following is correct..

You have a car(nothing to do with this issue directly) which for some reason was involved in an accident and your unknown insurance company arranged for Auxilis to provide a vehicle to you.

This was the vehicle involved in the contravention and it came into your possession solely because your insurer paid Auxilis to do so.

PCN - to you. Unsuccessful reps.
First NTO -  to Athlone who made reps to 'transfer liability', presumably 'we are a hire company and hirer(Auxilis) has signed an agreement accepting liability etc.

Authority accept these reps and serve NTO no. 2 on Auxilis as hirer.

They then make reps on grounds they are a hire company.

These are accepted.

You receive NTO no. 3

You make unsuccessful reps.

Your insurer pays the bill for the hire costs associated with your possession of the car.

Is this correct??

Spot on! Absolutely correct.

I have called the tribunal, and the hearing has been postponed to 24th Feb 25. But they tell me that I need to submit my final appeal 5 days before the hearing.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 06:19:00 pm by mitaab »

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #38 on: »
Then IMO the grounds of 'I am not the owner' apply.

Sir,
PCN *********

My grounds of appeal are as follows:

I was not the owner;
Contravention did not occur. ( if you want to, I rather got lost with the arguments here)

As regards the first grounds, I hope it would be helpful if I set out the various parties in these events.

Athlone - registered keeper of the vehicle and a leasing company;
Auxilis - lessee of the vehicle on, as the council states, a 'long term lease' and who also operate as a vehicle hire company;
******* - my insurance company who use Auxilis to provide insured parties with substitute vehicles while they undertake repairs;
Me - an insured party of **** and also the driver of the vehicle VRM **** which I had in my possession having been provided with this by Auxilis pursuant to a contract between them and *****.

Each of the above parties was served with a NTO issued by the authority.

NTO 1 - issued on ***** to Athlone. As the case summary states, they made representations to the effect that they were a hire company. These were accepted by the authority who then issued a NTO to Auxilis who were named as the 'hirer' pursuant to a 'hire agreement'.

NTO 2 - issued to Auxilis on **** to which they made the representations on the same grounds i.e. that they were a vehicle hire company and that I had entered into a hire agreement with them accepting liability for such matters as penalty charges.

NTO 3 - issued on ***** to me on the basis that I was considered the 'owner' for the  purposes of the Traffic Management Act and regulations.

I submit that I cannot be considered the 'owner' for these purposes for the following reasons and that no liability for the penalty falls to me.

It is clear that Athlone are not a vehicle hire company and there is no hire agreement between them and Auxilis. In support, I would respectfully refer you the Chief Adjudicator's Annual Report to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators 2022-2023, page 13 which dealt specifically with the issue of 'Transfer of Liability'.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/ETA%20Annual%20Report%202022%20-%202023.pdf

In the report he made clear (and referred to legal authorities in support of his view) that it was not open to an authority to accept representations on the grounds of 'd)the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and—

(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement,'

in case where leases for longer than 6 months apply. Instead, he stated that a registered keeper could rebut the presumption of ownership based upon a lease being in effect which would achieve the necessary degree of permanence regarding transfer of responsibility for the vehicle.

However, the council in this case have not provided any evidence that these were the grounds cited or their reasons for acceptance, but I suggest that this can be reasonably inferred from their summary. In these circumstances I submit that it was not open to the council to pursue any party other than Athlone as the registered keeper and presumed owner because no 'hiring agreement' was in effect between them and their lessee, Auxilis.

In addition to the above, as regards Auxilis the only contract which existed as regards the hire of the vehicle was between them and ****, my insurer. As their Ts and Cs make clear, my possession of the vehicle was subject to the 'Company's' direction, not mine. I submit that while they use the term Hire Agreement, this was for their convenience only and did not satisfy the requirements under the Road Traffic Offenders' Act and therefore the regulations.

In light of the above, I ask that my appeal be allowed.

You need to fill in gaps.

Some thoughts and wait for others.


Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #39 on: »
Very impressive! Many thanks.

Questions:

However, the council in this case have not provided any evidence that these were the grounds cited or their reasons for acceptance, but I suggest that this can be reasonably inferred from their summary. In these circumstances I submit that it was not open to the council to pursue any party other than Athlone as the registered keeper and presumed owner because no 'hiring agreement' was in effect between them and their lessee, Auxilis.

1) How do you know that there was no 'hiring agreement' between Athlon and Auxillis?

In addition to the above, as regards Auxilis the only contract which existed as regards the hire of the vehicle was between them and ****, my insurer. As their Ts and Cs make clear, my possession of the vehicle was subject to the 'Company's' direction, not mine. I submit that while they use the term Hire Agreement, this was for their convenience only and did not satisfy the requirements under the Road Traffic Offenders' Act and therefore the regulations.

2) Which requirement under the Road Traffic Offenders’ Act that Auxillis did not satisfy?

3) Do I not include the reference to the parking regulation:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/6/made

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #40 on: »
1) How do you know that there was no 'hiring agreement' between Athlon and Auxillis?

According to the authority's evidence. the vehicle was on long-term lease. This is their evidence! 

Which requirement under the Road Traffic Offenders’ Act that Auxillis did not satisfy?

There was no hire agreement because you did not contract with Auxilis, your insurer did.

3) Do I not include the reference to the parking regulation:

This simply refers to the RTOA which the adjudicator would already know. I don't think anything more needs to be added in this regard, but feel free to do so. 

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #41 on: »
There was no hire agreement because you did not contract with Auxilis, your insurer did.

But I did sign their document titled ‘Hire Agreement’, which I uploaded in this post. Auxillis provided  this document in support of their representations to the Council.

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #42 on: »
With regard to the CPZ sign, how do I approach this, taking into account the LA new photos and their associated arguments which they stated in their Summary?

By the way, they did not provide this information in the PCN or the NoR.

Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #43 on: »
If the argument of contravention did not occur won't fly, then don't make it.



But I did sign their document titled ‘Hire Agreement’, which I uploaded in this post. Auxillis provided  this document in support of their representations to the Council.

Of course they did, but in order to have an agreement you must have a contract which must have prescribed elements: offer; acceptance; consideration.

They did not offer hire terms to YOU, they offered them to your insurer.
Therefore you did not accept these terms, your insurer did.
And you didn't pay, your insurer did.

They can call this document what they like but IMO you were simply the driver, not the hirer. IMO, you came into possession of this car pursuant to an agreement between your insurer and Auxilis, not you and Auxilis.


Re: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Code 01
« Reply #44 on: »
They can call this document what they like but IMO you were simply the driver, not the hirer. IMO, you came into possession of this car pursuant to an agreement between your insurer and Auxilis, not you and Auxilis.

I have located the first email, please find link below, that I received from Auxillis in which they confirm that my insurance company have asked them to provide me with a replacement car (hire vehicle). This supports your argument that the agreement is between my insurance company and Auxillis.

https://ibb.co/pj87pLzk

Also, for your perusal, the following is the Reps and their Notice of Acceptance for Athlon and Auxillis respectively:

Athlon Reps
https://ibb.co/1GCGtt0K

Council’s NoA of Athlon’s Reps
https://ibb.co/ccmn9W6D

Auxillis Reps
https://ibb.co/dJpZQvLS

Council’s NoA of Auxillis Reps
https://ibb.co/gLJ8gD8n