Author Topic: Parked for a short time in red bay within the normal allowed time - received PCN! (threads merged)  (Read 334 times)

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Phf69

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On 17/9/24 at 17:02 I was parked for a short time in a red-marked bay on Bromley Road. I received a PCN today and went down to check the signage which says 1 hour parking up to 7pm! I was not parked in the loading area marked by the lines by the phone boxes. I have taken appropriate photos and the PCN ones show my car was not parked in the loading area.
My question is should I just appeal and attach the photos? What grounds do I cite? I honestly think the operative has looked at 17:02 and thought it was past 7pm?!

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Incandescent

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cp8759

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@Phf69 all TFL red route PCNs can be beaten at the moment, but please read the guidance posted by Incandescent and update your post accordingly.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Phf69

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I'm really sorry, Incandescent, but I did not take the advice you gave - mainly because it seemed a simple case and I was too busy to go through all the steps at that time.
So I appealed and simply sent the photo I had taken of the sign showing that parking was allowed up to 7pm and only received the reply last Monday 28th. They said that they had turned down the appeal and included their photo (undated) showing that stretch did not allow parking after 4pm. Could they have changed the regulations between the date of the 'offence' (17/9/24) and when I took my photo - 26/9/24, giving a longer period to park there? That is still the case now - how do you find out if the regulations have been changed?
What is the best way to proceed now - I have until a week on Monday to pay the £80 or submit an appeal to an 'Environment and Traffic Adjudicator at London Tribunals'. I am of the opinion that I'd like to appeal and will do whatever is advised on this forum.

Phf69

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Appeal rejected - way forward?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2024, 05:10:55 pm »
I appealed against a PCN which was rejected. I simply sent the photo I had taken of the sign showing that parking was allowed up to 7pm and received the reply last Monday 28th. They said that they had turned down the appeal and included their photo (undated) showing that stretch did not allow parking after 4pm. Could they have changed the regulations between the date of the 'offence' (17/9/24) and when I took my photo - 26/9/24, giving a longer period to park there? That is still the case now - how do you find out if and when the regulations have been changed on a particular stretch of road?
What is the best way to proceed now - I have until a week on Monday to pay the £80 or submit an appeal to an 'Environment and Traffic Adjudicator at London Tribunals'. I am of the opinion that I'd like to appeal and will do whatever is advised on this forum.

catnip

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Re: Appeal rejected - way forward?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2024, 06:30:26 pm »
You'll need to provide some details so that they can be reviewed, please read this and post accordingly:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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Phf69

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Just to explain my last post - the two photos of the sign show my photo taken on 26/9/24 indicating parking 7am-7pm which is what it is still now. The other sign is what TFL sent me showing parking from 7am to 4pm - this is undated. My photo is of course dated on my iPhone.

Incandescent

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There are two bays there, delineated by the double-dashed line perpendicular to the road, in front on your van and a sign for it. What does that sign say ? I think TfL are confused here, and haven't noticed the double-dash linr.
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roythebus

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Was there another sign where your van was parked? The one in the picture says when you can park. But are they our pics or TfL pics?
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.

Phf69

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Thanks for the replies. I’ve looked at a photo I took of the other bay and that is simply a loading bay with similar restricted times. The tfl version of the sign by Grillos where I was parked shows 7am to 4pm, but when was that in force? Now it is definitely 7am to 7pm. How do I prove that was the restriction when I parked there?

Phf69

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Apologies - it is now 10am - 7pm.

stamfordman

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Google Maps from June this year shows the sign was missing, which may be a clue.

In September 2023 it had the sign TFL reckons was there when you parked.

They seem to have had issues with signs here:

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-1135-2223

I think you have a good case if the sign there now covers when you parked.

Phf69

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Thanks for that information - it might well help my case. However, the sign may be seen in their black and white photos? What does the sign say, though? And why does it have different times in that position now?

Incandescent

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The bottom line is that you show a photo of your van parked in the bay with the sign present at the time. This shows parking allowed between 10am to 7pm for one hour, no return within 2 hours. One has to wonder if TfL know what signs they have themselves erected !  This is a clear case where you'll only get the correct answer at London Tribunals.

GSV June 2024 shows the sign is missing. There is a sign for the other bay as can be seen in this 2023 view.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/znKdsv3hjWekCsWn7
This clearly shows the bay delineater between the two bays of a double-dashed line perpendicular to the kerb. The 2024 view also shows this.

TfL seem to be being their usual thick and stupid selves here.