3. No U Turn - Visibility Distance
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No U Turn - Visibility Distance
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Hi all! Looking for some advice. I received this PCN whilst driving up Boxtree Road and turning left in to High Street. The 'No U Turn' sign is on the corner of the junction and I missed the sign. Does the minimum visibility of 60m apply here? I don't feel that the sign was in a position where it would obviously be seen. Postcode for maps is HA3 6JU.

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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #1 on: »
So here: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/k2EbMp332hcLmEB39
But in 2018, the No U-Turn sign was further away from the junction on on the traffic island: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/m7DjYfML3QYvHpAs8
So you could argue inadequate signage under Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18

However, it is extremely unlikely the council will give way and cancel the PCN, so yoy'd have to take them to London Tribunals, with the full PCN penalty in play. If you're up for that, go ahead, but you must first submit representations to the council.  I would suggest your reps point out the disadvantage the resited sign resullts on motorists turning out of Boxtree Road. They will reply with the usual FOb-Off letter of rejection.
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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #2 on: »
Really appreciate the reply. Good spot on the change of placement for the sign! Wonder why that was.

Sounds like it's 50 50 then on inadequate signage. Perhaps not worth the battle.

I did try and check the London Tribunals website for this particular road, but the search functionality doesn't seem to work properly.

Assume the 60m minimum visibility distance wouldnt apply here?

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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #3 on: »
Post the video.
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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #4 on: »
Video attached. As you can see, by the time I've completed the turn in to the road, I'm past the sign

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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #5 on: »
Note that I have just turned left in to the road (checking for traffic on my right) whilst also having to be cautious of the zebra crossing.

Hope the video is ok, limited ability on my phone to crop and convert to gif!
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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #6 on: »
So I assume the point you would make if you take the matter to adjudication, is that the sign is badly place since it was moved from the centre traffic island. If the sign had been in its old position, it is very likely you would not have made a U-turn. OK to go with this, but it's not a slam-dunk matter, because the council will emphasise that the sign is there and visible even if you turn left, i.e its not to the right of the T-junction.
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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #7 on: »
The ‘no U-turn’ sign seems to have been placed within a ‘parallel controlled area’ (zig-zag lines). The TSRGD prohibits the use of all road signs (with a few exceptions, eg no-right-turn) from being placed within zig-zag lines. The reason for this is that drivers need to be fully concentrating on pedestrians and cyclists using the parallel crossing. It’s no wonder you missed the sign - you were watching out for cyclists.

IMO you could argue the ‘no U-turn’ sign breaches the regulations in its current position. The sign should have been placed before the zig-zags and ideally on both sides of the road.

TSRGD reg.2 Sch 1 refers.

PS - there’s also the minor issue of non-compliant ‘end’ signs further down the road (unless they’ve been changed since Sept 2024).
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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #8 on: »
Was there any final outcome on this as I had a similar ticket at the same place and curious to know what happened before starting another post.
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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #9 on: »
The original poster has not been back since 24 July so you should start your own thread.
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Re: No U Turn - Visibility Distance
« Reply #10 on: »
I just paid it in the end. Responses seemed to allude it was a grey area. If I was a bit younger and had more energy I would have considered challenging it as I think there were valid grounds!
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