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Hi @cp8759 & @Incandescent,

Thank you for taking the time to look into this for me.

I have just received a charge certificate dated 19th of December 2024.

Context:
Back in November I received 3 letters from council:
#1 - Charge certificate for entering Manor road
#2 - Charge certificate for existing the Manor road
#3 – PCN for this 52m @ Royal Albert Way

I made a post here on this website for #1 and #2 then I appealed all three with the council (both sending both letters and submitted them online). The council wrote back in two identical letters that they rejected appeal 1 twice… but left 2 untouched. Reduced the fees from £190 each to £65 as I was never provided PCNs for them. I paid this off to not deal with this anymore, more on this below.

For appeal 3 I never heard back.

This is the PCN that I got for #3


And their evidence:

https://youtu.be/F1iC2xXjHzQ

You can see that once the driver has processed that this was in fact a different sign to the regular 40mph they started to break/stop but it was already too deep into the turn.

Here is the location from Street View link in Google Maps, and the sign it’s showing as 40mph:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PA9AZBUZuRedBEQN8

I then submitted the previously mentioned appeal both online and send this via post.


Here is proof of postage – all 3 letters were sent together:


And here is proof of the online submission:


Since then, the council has rejected appeal 1 and 2, and as I didn’t want to deal with this anymore, I just paid £130 (2x£65, which was better than the original £190x2 they wanted!). However, the council made a mistake, and only reduced #1 from £190 to £65 and left #2 at £190. As the website allowed you to input whatever amount you wish to pay, I just paid £65 each and wrote to them on their portal to say they have made an administrative mistake and need to rectify that.

A few days later I got this response:


Here they have confirmed that #1 and #2 is resolved but that there are 4 more cases in their system.

Here was my response to them:


I have heard nothing back in the e-mail or via post, until just now I got charge certificate dated 19th of December 2024


Questions
Now, what do I do here?
Do I write back to the council saying they have never responded to my appeal?
Do I wait for the tribunal letters?
Also, what should I do about PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643, these are from 2021…?

PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643
These are 3 charges that as explained in my response to them I was never notified. Their e-mail was the first time I found out about them. All 3 all for the same thing, back wheel was in the yellow box in Newham, but this was in 2021! I checked on the register and no judgements have been registered against me so I have no clue what I need to do with these as paying £570 (£190x3) for something I only found via their e-mail is ridiculous at best. Do I just leave it until a letter from the courts appear?

I understand that there is a lot of info here so thank you for taking the time to look through this.

Sorry, but it's not completely clear - how many PCNs are outstanding, (i.e not paid). It would be better if you could list them with date of PCN, and for each one, say what stage it is at.

For PCNs at the Charge Certificate stage, for which you have submitted representations, you have to now wait for the Order for Recovery for each of those, and then submit a Statutory Declaration to the TEC that you made representations, but received no Notice of Rejection of Reps. TEC will then cancel the OfRs and the CCs and the matter then reverts to the PCN stage.

After the end date for payment of the CCs, you need to be proactive, and to check the amount outstanding on the Newham website. When it goes up by £10 to £205, the debt has been registered and you can submit your SD. You don't even have to wait for the Order for Recovery to arrive, because you can download the form from the EC website.

Your case does seem to be a bit of a Dog's Breakfast, and the usual incompetence and stupidity of Newham is on display. Just remember that Newham do not re-offer the discount after rejecting representations, making it a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals where you are sure to win, because these signs have been declared as non-compliant by at least one adjudicator.

Thanks for looking into this for me and I know it’s a lot and I did my best trying to explain everything as there were 6 PCNs and very poor to non-existent communication from Newham.

#1 PN75748188 – paid and case closed
#2 PN75748213 – paid and case closed
#3 PN76007402 – This is what the post is about re Albert Way
#4 PN62628875 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2
#5 PN62645400 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2
#6 PN62647643 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2

PN76007402
This is the Albert way one where I got the notice about on the 19th of December. I appealed as per original post but never got a response, neither that they agree or rejected my appeal. Then they sent me a Charge Certificate saying I never submitted a representation which is just not true. While dealing with them I found out about the other 3. 

If the goal is to wait for Order for Recovery but what if they never register it like they didn’t with the below 3?

PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643
And the other 3 that I found out about from their e-mail. All 3 are from 2021 and I never got anything in post from neither them or the Tribunal so it’s hard to say what stage this is at. I only accidently found out about them on that e-mail from the council.

I never got any Order for Recovery for the above 3 and the council website says that these are still at £195 each after almost 5 years so nothing was registered. I read somewhere that they have only 6 years to act on this and given their incompetence it looks like they won’t do anything re this… Unless the newly elected MP has other ideas!

@correcthaunt firstly what a mess, if you'd appealed everything with our help we could have probably got everything cancelled, you know for next time.

So here are your follow-up actions:

1) Stop all communication with the London Borough of Newham. The more you contact them asking for a resolution, the more they mess things up and the more work we have untangling everything. Even if the council tries to help, they are incompetent and will typically make things worse. Where you need to contact them for a specific PCN, I have said so explicitly below.

2) You posted PCNs PN74748188 and PN75748213 here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/newham-code-52m-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-types-of-vehicle/ and I told you to follow the statutory process to get them reset, instead you accepted the council's "offer" of a discretionary reset which they would have been obliged to give you anyway. Basically you've been mugged, but as I said you know for next time.

3) For PCN PN76007402, there are no "tribunal letters" and if you do nothing you will end up with an Order for Recovery. That is not the end of the world, but it's far better to find out if there is a Notice of Rejection. So, for this particular PCN, make a subject access request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of the Notice of Rejection issued for this PCN to be emailed to you, you will need to provide proof of ID and proof of address as per the lists provided here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/requesting-personal-information

If it turns out a Notice of Rejection does exist (which it almost certainly does) then it will have been lost in the post, but that doesn't matter as an appeal can still be filed, I can also represent you at the tribunal, the location in question is reasonably straightforward to win on appeal.

4) PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643: Two things here: firstly make a separate Subject Access Request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of all information held in respect of these PCNs (you don't want it mixed up with the request for PN76007402). Secondly do not send any other communication to the council about these PCNs, in particular do not "appeal" or make representations against them, and do not ask them to "reset" them to £65 or to any other amount, at the moment you're just on an information gathering exercise.

For these three PCNs even though you have not received a charge certificate we know one has been issued, therefore this time please listen to me and follow the process described here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/

We can almost certainly get these three PCNs cancelled altogether, so if were to accept a "generous offer" from the council to close these for £65 each, again you would just be getting mugged.

Agreed and in hindsight I should have reached out here first.

My action points:
1.   Stopped all communication with the London Borough of Newham (LBN).

2.   E-mail regarding PCN PN76007402 sent to LBN.


3.   E-mail regarding PCN PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 sent to LBN.
 
Got an OOO stating that they are not going to be back until 2nd of January. Not sure how long they have to respond for these requests, but I will chase them by 9th if I haven’t heard back.

4.   Regarding following that process, I have a few questions:
a.   The owed amount is showing as £195 GBP on the council website, so I don’t think this was registered with TEC. If it hasn’t done you still want me to follow the process? And on Monday I will call TEC on 0300 123 1059 to find out if these were registered.
b.   Do I need this PE3 form for each PCN?
c.   Could I just go to Stratford Magistrates' Court and Family Court and ask someone to sign this for me?
d.   Should I wait for the LBN to respond to my request first before I do the PE3?
e.   Can I do the PN76007402 as well just to save myself going back to the court twice? If so, would I need to tick a different option here?

5.   Do you want me to create a separate thread for PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643?

firstly what a mess, if you'd appealed everything with our help we could have probably got everything cancelled, you know for next time.

So here are your follow-up actions:

1) Stop all communication with the London Borough of Newham. The more you contact them asking for a resolution, the more they mess things up and the more work we have untangling everything. Even if the council tries to help, they are incompetent and will typically make things worse. Where you need to contact them for a specific PCN, I have said so explicitly below.

2) You posted PCNs PN74748188 and PN75748213 here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/newham-code-52m-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-types-of-vehicle/ and I told you to follow the statutory process to get them reset, instead you accepted the council's "offer" of a discretionary reset which they would have been obliged to give you anyway. Basically you've been mugged, but as I said you know for next time.

3) For PCN PN76007402, there are no "tribunal letters" and if you do nothing you will end up with an Order for Recovery. That is not the end of the world, but it's far better to find out if there is a Notice of Rejection. So, for this particular PCN, make a subject access request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of the Notice of Rejection issued for this PCN to be emailed to you, you will need to provide proof of ID and proof of address as per the lists provided here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/requesting-personal-information

If it turns out a Notice of Rejection does exist (which it almost certainly does) then it will have been lost in the post, but that doesn't matter as an appeal can still be filed, I can also represent you at the tribunal, the location in question is reasonably straightforward to win on appeal.

4) PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643: Two things here: firstly make a separate Subject Access Request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of all information held in respect of these PCNs (you don't want it mixed up with the request for PN76007402). Secondly do not send any other communication to the council about these PCNs, in particular do not "appeal" or make representations against them, and do not ask them to "reset" them to £65 or to any other amount, at the moment you're just on an information gathering exercise.

For these three PCNs even though you have not received a charge certificate we know one has been issued, therefore this time please listen to me and follow the process described here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/

We can almost certainly get these three PCNs cancelled altogether, so if were to accept a "generous offer" from the council to close these for £65 each, again you would just be getting mugged.

Hi @cp8759,

Please see an update for each point below. 

My action points:
1. Stopped all communication with the London Borough of Newham (LBN).

2. E-mail regarding PCN PN76007402 sent to LBN.


30/12/2024 09:24 LBN responds saying this was passed to the Parking Enforcement team and I should hear back by no later than 30 January 2025.

07/01/2025 Letter from Newham council arrives suggesting to get in touch if I am struggling to afford to pay the outstanding amount.


3. E-mail regarding PCN PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 sent to LBN.


30/12/2024 09:24 LBN responds saying this was passed to the Parking Enforcement team and I should hear back by no later than 30 January 2025.

03/01/2025 11:12 LBN provides me the PDF of both the Notice and the Charge letters that have never been received...

PN62628875


PN62645400


PN62647643


4. Questions:
a) 08/01/2025 I called the TEC on 0300 123 1059 and asked about all 4 PCNs and none of them have been registered.

The owed amount is still showing as £195 GBP on the council website for every single one of them.

What do I do here now?

b. Do I need this PE3 form for each PCN?
c. Could I just go to Stratford Magistrates' Court and Family Court and ask someone to sign this for me?
d. Should I wait for the LBN to respond to my request first before I do the PE3?
e. Can I do the PN76007402 as well just to save myself going back to the court twice? If so, would I need to tick a different option here?

5. Do you want me to create a separate thread for PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643?

Re: PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643. Have your received Orders for Recovery for each one? As I understand you all three are still sitting at £195. So I think no OfRs have been issued, so you cannot submit Statutory Declarations (form PE3).

You can get Statutory Declarations witnessed at a Magistrate's Court (or a Solicitor) but you will likely need an appointment and there will be a fee payable for each document. Not sure how much in Stratford, guesstimate £10. That said you can get SD's witnessed at a County Court for free. Some of the Court officials are authorised to witness documents. Any convenient County Court will do. However it's best to phone first and check the opening hours and make an appointment if that's what they want.

Do you want me to create a separate thread for PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643? For the moment leave these three together, until a forum member asks you to separate. As things stand your case(s) and what has and has not happened is too confusing. And some of the members are easily confused.

Re: PN76007402. That's a separate thread already. I'll look into it and post back later.

Re: PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643. I have not received RoF, and this has happened back in 2021.

RE: Statutory Declarations. Got it so it has to be a County Court and not Magistrates' Court.

RE New thread. I only found out about PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 because of writing to council regarding 2 different PCNs as explained above. This case was created for PN76007402.

I tried my hardest to make this as simple as possible but the whole thing is a bit of a mess.

@correcthaunt for PN76007402 obviously the council never received your representations. You send a representation by post, that was obviously a mistake: anything you send by post gets scanned into the computer and the paper copy is immediately shredded, so it's a massive waste of time. If you make a representation online it goes directly into the council computer, so as well as being immediate, cheaper and more environmentally friendly you avoid the risk of postal issue. You now for next time. For now, all you can do is wait for the debt to be registered.

For this PCN, follows the process outlined here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/


For PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643, there's nothing you can do aside from waiting for the debt to be registered with TEC. Follow the process outlined here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/

By law statutory declarations can be done at either the County Court or the Magistrates' Court, but the County Court will be easier because they do it all the time, the staff at the Magistrates' Court might have no idea how the process works so it's not really worth the hassle of having to deal with them. As an alternative, any high street solicitor will normally do this for around £10 / £15.

Once you've made the statutory declarations let me know, but do not submit them before the debt is registered with TEC or they'll just get rejected.

Hi @cp8759,

Thank you for getting back to me, I really appreciate it.

PN76007402
Why wouldn’t the council get my representations? I posted all 3 together and they responded to the first two. Not to mention that I also submitted my representation for all 3 online as well. The proof of submission can be seen on the original post. I feel like this one is going to be registered but I am curious to see what they say to the request for information. Will I be notified of this being registered with TEC or do I need to check with TEC myself on weekly basis? 

Thank you for the link I will prepare the PE3 just in case now.

PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643
It’s annoying that there's nothing I can do aside from waiting for the debt to be registered with TEC. Given that these happened in 2021 and haven’t been registered yet I don’t think they will do so any time soon. Last two questions on this
1.   Do these things expire or can the council go after this in 20 years from now?
2.   Will I be notified of this being registered with TEC or do I need to check with TEC myself regularly? 

Quote from: correcthaunt on January 08, 2025, 11:35:44 pm

PN76007402
Why wouldn’t the council get my representations? I posted all 3 together and they responded to the first two.

The post office receipt suggests you sent three separate letters in three separate envelopes. Royal Mail used to be 99.97% reliable back in the day, but that all stopped with Covid and they never really recovered, see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8nkj2k237o and https://www.thecomet.net/news/24098443.anger-rogue-postman-dumped-peoples-letters/ and https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6513571/postman-sacked (I'm sure there's many more).

So, we'll never know why but for whatever reason one of the three envelopes was never received, it is what it is.

As for the Order for Recovery, you could just rely on the Royal Mail delivering it, but if the postie throws it in a hedge you then have a real problem.

You don't need to call TEC, just check the amount on the council website every couple of weeks, once the penalty goes up from £195 to £205 you know that the debt has been registered.

For PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 you could raise a formal complaint on the grounds of undue delay using the complaint form here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/make-complaint/2

If you go down the complaint route you need to make it very clear that you're not complaining about the PCNs or asking them to cancel them, you're only complaining about the undue delay in the council following the statutory process, and make it clear that all you want them to do is carry on with the next statutory step i.e. register the debt with TEC. Maybe post a draft on here first.

PN76007402
I hear you regarding the post office and that's fine, although I would imagine they should have received it. That said, I still submitted it online so either way they should have gotten it somehow.

Checking the website once a week won't be a problem so that should be fine.

PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643
Say I do the complaint, and they proceed to register it. I then do the PE3, and it starts the process again.

What happens then? How do I go about getting it dismissed? I would be happy to pay £65 for the first one only. Had I actually received it, I would have paid the £65 and be extra careful with that box and never let the other two happen.

Also that camera has been since destroyed by someone so not sure if this helps me or not as it clearly worked at the time

As I understand the position.

You actually received PCN PN76007402 and
PCN date = 29/10/2024
Reps created = 10/11/2024
Online Representation date = 11/11/2024
Acknowledgement receipt date = 11/11/2024 22:13, Ack Ref = W26800139
Reps physically posted = 12/11/2024 & proof of posting received
Charge Cert date = 19/12/2024
Non statutory letter date = 06/01/2025

So for PCN PN76007402 you received the PCN and you submitted a representation online within the deadlines. You posted via Royal Mail your reps next day for good measure and obtained a proof of posting. The Council then issued a Charge Cert and a non-statutory follow up letter. The PCN currently sits at £195 due on their website.

All of the above being true then you need to sit tight and wait for them to register the debt with the Traffic Enforcement Centre which will add the £10 court fee to the amount due. Registering the debt allows them to issue and serve an Order for Recovery.

When you receive the Order for Recovery you can complete and submit to the TEC the Statutory Declaration (form PE3) that will be included. Tick the box that says "I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice". One box only.

The TEC will order the OfR revoked and the CC cancelled and the case should be referred to the Adjudicator for direction on how to proceed. Standing practice is for the Council to re-serve the Notice of Rejection where one exists. You can then pay or submit an appeal to the Adjudicator. If no NoR exists then the Adjudicator will schedule a hearing, the case will be heard as if it were an appeal. You will be invited to make a submission and to attend in person or by phone.

As you are aware you don't actually have to receive the OfR in order to submit the SD. You can download the form, complete it, get it witnessed and email it to the TEC once you see that the charge due has increased to £205 from the current £195.

I wouldn't bother with any further follow up correspondence with Newham. They've had their chance.

I note the the Ack receipt for your reps doesn't actually quote the PCN number, just an enquiry number. Is that true of the online Ack emails for the other PCNs?

RE: PCNs PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643. These PCNs are all in Feb 2021. The V5c for your car was last updated 07/09/2021. So I would suggest that the Registered Keeper address was likely incorrect prior to Sept 2021 and this is why you did not receive any of the notices for these three PCNs. Sit tight with these as well.