Author Topic: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge  (Read 236 times)

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anonymous

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Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« on: September 26, 2024, 04:32:40 pm »
Hi All,

need your help once again. I searched on this forum about similar cases and found this topic but the original poster never got back to responding so I am starting this thread.

The driver parked in a pay and display in Redbridge and registered for an hours parking. Unfortunately the driver got back to the car a bit late and found the dreaded pcn attached to the windscreen, 17 minutes after the paid parking had lapsed. Was a bit shocked and delighted to see that it was supposedly only going to cost £11, but on closer inspection it seems that the printer was misaligned and everything had shifted down.

The driver is wondering if there is any leg to stand on?

Paid Parking: https://ibb.co/sVDCGqt
PCN Front: https://ibb.co/ydctsfD
PCN Back: https://ibb.co/hVCr1MN
GSV: Link
« Last Edit: September 26, 2024, 04:52:13 pm by anonymous »

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stamfordman

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2024, 04:43:02 pm »
I'd say this isn't compliant in multiple places but others will no doubt comment.


John U.K.

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2024, 05:03:07 pm »




I am inclined (pace Stamforman) to feel that an Adjudicator may say that it is not sufficiently distorted for the man on the Clapham omnibus not to be able to make sense of the misprint. Therte may well be mistakes in the 'small print'on the back, but that is above my pay-grade!


Incandescent

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2024, 05:58:46 pm »
The PCN distortion is rather thin gruel for an appeal to London Tribunals, and you'd have to risk the full PCN penalty as well. It is virtually inevitable any representations submitted to the council will be refused, but submit them anyway, as they may ****-up their reply, which then gives you a stronger appeal argument.

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2024, 06:38:56 pm »
The PCN distortion is rather thin gruel for an appeal to London Tribunals, and you'd have to risk the full PCN penalty as well. It is virtually inevitable any representations submitted to the council will be refused, but submit them anyway, as they may ****-up their reply, which then gives you a stronger appeal argument.

Can I play on the argument that the PCN states £11 as a fine but the online portal shows £40?

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2024, 06:39:16 pm »
Hang on. When you go to challenge, first screenshot the page and report back with what grounds are provided please.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2024, 06:43:28 pm »
Hang on. When you go to challenge, first screenshot the page and report back with what grounds are provided please.

https://ibb.co/dDnwK4d

Edit: Apologies, inserting the image is broken for me it seems. Ive changed the link to remove the [img]

Grant Urismo

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2024, 06:52:11 pm »
Wait to see what others say, but I'd be tempted to post them a cheque for £11 "in full and final settlement". It'll get rejected, but I think you'd be in a pretty strong position at adjudication given that the actual amount is the least readable part of the PCN.

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2024, 06:54:52 pm »
Hang on. When you go to challenge, first screenshot the page and report back with what grounds are provided please.

https://ibb.co/dDnwK4d

Edit: Apologies, inserting the image is broken for me it seems. Ive changed the link to remove the [img]

Clearly not the whole grounds:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/5/made
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2024, 06:56:28 pm »
Wait to see what others say, but I'd be tempted to post them a cheque for £11 "in full and final settlement". It'll get rejected, but I think you'd be in a pretty strong position at adjudication given that the actual amount is the least readable part of the PCN.
I half agree. After all, it is purportedly the first legal document in the chain. Give them £5.50.

mrmustard sent me this yesterday:

Case Details
Case
reference
2240242447
Appellant Yocheved Goldmeier
Authority London Borough of Barnet
VRM LN12CGG
PCN Details
PCN AG44813617
Contravention
date
06 Feb 2024
Contravention
time
09:17:00
Contravention
location
Penshurst Gardens
Penalty
amount
GBP 80.00
Contravention Parked without payment of the parking charge
Referral date
Decision Date 02 Aug 2024
Adjudicator Martin Hoare
Appeal
decision
Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons The Appellant accurately submitted ‘The EA on
page 2 paragraph 5 of their NoR state that;” As a
goodwill gesture, we are willing to reoffer you the
opportunity to pay at a discount price of £65, if paid
within 14 days from the date of this letter”. However
further down the same page of the same NoR
namely on page 2 paragraph 9, the EA state the
discount amount to be £40, ie; “Pay within 14 days
of the date of service of this letter at the amount of
£40 and the case will be closed”.’
The Council apologised ‘ for the typographical error
made by the officer in the NOR. The PCN was
issued at the statutory rate of £80, reduced to £40 if
paid within 14 days of the date of the PCN. The
Council then re-offered the discounted rate when
NOR was issued for a further 14 days of the date of
the NOR. It should be noted that this was done as a
gesture of goodwill. The Council was not required
under the regulations to re-offer a discount. The
PCN was set at £40 during the discount period and
this would have appeared as the charge payable for
the appellant had they chosen to pay the PCN.’
However the statutory scheme requires practical
certainty about the level of penalty to be paid and
when a penalty is to be paid. In this instance the
typographical mistake caused a real scope for
material confusion on an important aspect of the
enforcement process.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2024, 07:01:28 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2024, 10:50:02 am »
So I should only attempt to pay them the £11 as full and final payment?

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2024, 10:56:39 am »
Why £11? Pay the discount: £5.50 and see what they come back with. If this were mine, I would.

I already have two complaints in against these clowns.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

stamfordman

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2024, 11:03:11 am »
I would just challenge saying the PCN is not compliant owing to misalignment of the printer and enclose a pic.

They may just cancel it.

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2024, 11:08:48 am »
+1
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

stamfordman

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2024, 11:22:03 am »
Don't include the payment slip in the pic although that's where the PCN number and VRM are printed clearly. But the slip is not part of the PCN (I believe).
A good test is if you give the PCN to someone and ask them to immediately read out the key details.