Author Topic: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge  (Read 497 times)

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anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2024, 02:50:58 pm »
OP, here are the regs which apply:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2/made

I have not referred to the 'appeals' regs because they don't bear upon this matter.

Whether what's printed on the PCN is misaligned is not material because the regs don't refer to alignment! You are concerned with the regs and if the 'information' from one or more of the mandatory matters is not 'included' then these are your grounds(others will deal with any website issues).

So, what's not included?

IMO, it's obvious i.e. the penalty charge. And this is only obvious now because you've received the NTO.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your PCN states:
Penalty charge £11 

You have subsequently found out from the NTO that this figure should be £80.

Once one knows what the sum should be, then it's possible to see this in the PCN albeit that the reader has to ignore what is printed - £11 - and view the next line under a microscope knowing what one is looking for.

But as drivers are not blessed with the gift of clairvoyance, it would be and was impossible to determine with confidence the penalty being demanded by reading the PCN alone, and this is the correct procedural test. 

In the council's response to these representations, I would take it badly if they repeated the non sequitur of their rejection to my challenge with a reference to 'you also made an informal challenge' as if this undermines my grounds which it does not i.e. this permanently printed part was readable, because it was acted upon, which shows that all free field information must have been similarly readable. 


So I should appeal the NTO by saying the ticket states £11?
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

H C Andersen

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2024, 04:21:56 pm »
I think the time for thin submissions on this point is over.

I suggest.

PCN ******

Procedural Impropriety
I refer to the NTO issued on **** in respect of the above PCN.

When I made my initial representations I included a copy of my PCN and described the printing as being misaligned. At that time I did not realise that it would be necessary for me to go into regulatory detail given that the CEO's error was so blatant and one which a proper consideration of those representations could not have failed to recognise.

Your subsequent rejection and the NTO show that I was wrong.

As the authority will see, the amount of penalty demanded in the PCN is £11 but in the NTO it is £80. Self-evidently therefore the PCN is defective and constitutes a procedural impropriety given that the 'amount of the penalty charge' is a 'regulatory matter' which must be included in the PCN. So, either £11 or £80 is incorrect or perhaps both. But whichever is correct still represents a procedural impropriety as regards the PCN or the NTO.

The authority cannot have it both ways and I submit would do well to accept now what is manifestly the case rather than let the adjudicator determine the same outcome.

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2024, 10:09:12 am »
I think the time for thin submissions on this point is over.

I suggest.

PCN ******

Procedural Impropriety
I refer to the NTO issued on **** in respect of the above PCN.

When I made my initial representations I included a copy of my PCN and described the printing as being misaligned. At that time I did not realise that it would be necessary for me to go into regulatory detail given that the CEO's error was so blatant and one which a proper consideration of those representations could not have failed to recognise.

Your subsequent rejection and the NTO show that I was wrong.

As the authority will see, the amount of penalty demanded in the PCN is £11 but in the NTO it is £80. Self-evidently therefore the PCN is defective and constitutes a procedural impropriety given that the 'amount of the penalty charge' is a 'regulatory matter' which must be included in the PCN. So, either £11 or £80 is incorrect or perhaps both. But whichever is correct still represents a procedural impropriety as regards the PCN or the NTO.

The authority cannot have it both ways and I submit would do well to accept now what is manifestly the case rather than let the adjudicator determine the same outcome.


Thank you so much for this. When I went online to appeal, they are asking for evidence. I presume I send the original pictures of the PCN?
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2024, 12:53:39 pm »
Please screenshot all pages of their website and get back.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2024, 02:06:32 pm »
Please screenshot all pages of their website and get back.


.

.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 02:13:09 pm by anonymous »
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2024, 05:54:40 pm »
So should I post the original PCN?
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2024, 07:11:18 pm »
There is usually a page with hoops to jump through. Tick this box etc. re grounds which do not apply. In your case same?
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2024, 11:33:38 am »
There is usually a page with hoops to jump through. Tick this box etc. re grounds which do not apply. In your case same?

Apologies, yes there are a couple pages I missed.




The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2024, 11:37:17 am »
That's the one.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2024, 11:44:09 am »
That's the one.

I am not sure I see anything that applies to my current situation.
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

H C Andersen

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2024, 11:55:26 am »
OP, you are obliged to comply with the instructions on the NTO as regards making reps.

The NTO offers two methods: online and by post.

Each must offer the same contents.

I think the point being made is that the website grounds and those in the NTO are materially different. 

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2024, 12:21:13 pm »
OP, you are obliged to comply with the instructions on the NTO as regards making reps.

The NTO offers two methods: online and by post.

Each must offer the same contents.

I think the point being made is that the website grounds and those in the NTO are materially different.

So you are saying that because they have not listed the same points on the NTO and their online portal, their response is inherently incorrect? Does that fall under procedural impropriety? What does it mean in this case?

If that was the case then does that apply to all their NTOs they send out because I assume its the same in all cases.
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

Hippocrates

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2024, 12:31:16 pm »
Also the website fetters discretion.

cp usually advises to raise the website issue at the Tribunal.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2024, 12:32:50 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2024, 02:23:14 pm »
Ok so I am assuming that they will reject this appeal and it will go to the tribunals. At any case, I assume I need to make representations now.

Am I correct in saying that I will select Procedural Impropriety as the reason and then submit the following text supplied by H C Andersen:
PCN ******

Procedural Impropriety
I refer to the NTO issued on **** in respect of the above PCN.

When I made my initial representations I included a copy of my PCN and described the printing as being misaligned. At that time I did not realise that it would be necessary for me to go into regulatory detail given that the CEO's error was so blatant and one which a proper consideration of those representations could not have failed to recognise.

Your subsequent rejection and the NTO show that I was wrong.

As the authority will see, the amount of penalty demanded in the PCN is £11 but in the NTO it is £80. Self-evidently therefore the PCN is defective and constitutes a procedural impropriety given that the 'amount of the penalty charge' is a 'regulatory matter' which must be included in the PCN. So, either £11 or £80 is incorrect or perhaps both. But whichever is correct still represents a procedural impropriety as regards the PCN or the NTO.

The authority cannot have it both ways and I submit would do well to accept now what is manifestly the case rather than let the adjudicator determine the same outcome.
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.

anonymous

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Re: Misaligned PCN - Borough of Redbridge
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2024, 12:34:44 pm »
Just an update, I have submitted representations as I was coming to the end of my 28 days using the post previous to this.

Your representation has been received
Your representation was submitted on Tue 26/11/2024 12:33.
Your case reference number is: TF00537498.
The other day, a parking enforcement officer stopped me and said “You can’t park here. It’s badge holders only.”

I looked them in the eye and said, “Good to know - I do have a bad shoulder.