Author Topic: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05  (Read 497 times)

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Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
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Hello regulars

PCN received by my brother while in Milton Keynes for acting rehearsals at the Leonardo Hotel.  Chronology:

He parked up and believed he had paid by phone for a session from 8:49 to 16:49.  Later on in the day he realised the payment hadn't gone through and tried again without success around 10:30. 

He then went out to pay for a ticket at the machine during a break that began at 10:40am due to the online payment issues.  He saw his car but didn't notice anyone at the time and may have missed the CEO by a mere minute or so. 

There were 3 people in front of him at the machine and so he got a ticket for his vehicle with a timestamp of 10:49am.  Given he was in a rush to get back to the hotel, he only noticed the PCN tucked in the corner of the windscreen at the end of the day.

It should be noted this was the first time he had ever parked here and so the contravention code is incorrect and should have been an 06 instead of an 05 which I assume is a PI on the part of the council.

I'm guessing a code 05 contravention should have afforded him a 10 minute observation period which would have given him time to put the ticket into the car while the CEO was present?  Obviously an error on the part of the CEO but nonetheless their muck up.

The location in question:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vmxe1vGovLZDxPyx5

The PCN front and back:



The P+D ticket:


CEO photos:









I'll draft some initial reps but guess I wasn't sure if it was best to just state what happened as above or just highlight that time was paid for eight minutes after the CEO logged the contravention and plea for discretion while also highlighting the contravention did not occur due to the incorrect code?

Any input appreciated.

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Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #1 on: »
Are you sure he didn't pay for a shorter session that expired.

If yes then it's an easy win on wrong contravention.

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #2 on: »
Are you sure he didn't pay for a shorter session that expired.

This is the session he repeatedly tried to pay for without success.



I'll double check with him but I'm confident no shorter session was paid for.

I also did some digging and MK council give the following insight regarding PCNs:




I also note in the second screenshot they stipulate 5 minutes grace to pay for a ticket and worryingly gives reasons they will not cancel a PCN which strikes me as pre-empting fettering of discretion.

I'll come back and 100% confirm no prior sessions/shorter sessions etc were ever bought.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2024, 12:42:23 pm by LoneStartState »

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #3 on: »
So as always, with full information it is clear what has happened.

So my brother did have a Ringo session for parking in Milton Keynes that he paid for on the 5th to cover 2 hours on the morning of the 6th that would have expired at 9am. 



However the location he parked at marked by the turquoise star below, while sharing the same location code, was over 250m from where he then parked on the 6th marked by the red star.  He didn't notice that the location code was the same when trying to pay (and realistically wouldn't have expected it given the different street and significant distance - a man on the Clapham Ominbus may well agree) but utlimately couldn't pay by phone anyways and subsequently used the machine getting the ticket 8 minutes after the CEO had written theirs.



I guess this is a unique feature of Milton Keynes's urban planning whereby large swathes of the city centre blocks all fall under the same location code.

I'll prepare a draft focussing more on discretion given the above.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2024, 12:11:49 pm by LoneStartState »

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #4 on: »
Yes as I suspected.

It's actually good to have one location code for lots of parking as we see ridiculous PCNs in London where codes can vary in almost adjoining bays.

The upside here is it's the cheapest penalty - £25 at discount if you have to pay. 

But there's a good case for discretion on the confusion with the overrun to the next morning and your brother was acting in good faith with the system.

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #5 on: »
Small update

Informal reps were submitted, albeit outside the discount window.  Rejection unsurprisingly received.  They've seemed to have missed the wood for the trees but expected at this stage.  Awaiting NTO.

Reps were submitted as follows:

Dear Milton Keynes Council

On the evening of the 5th November I arrived and parked near the EasyHotel just off Silbury Road in Milton Keynes city centre and promptly paid by phone to cover parking into the morning of the 6th prior to me departing the hotel.  The location I parked is marked in the attachment “MK parking locations” with the light blue star.  This is the first time I have visited the city.  I have evidence of my hotel booking for that evening also attached.

Later on the morning of the 6th I parked in the Witan Gate East location near Genesis House as I needed to take items to the Leonardo hotel where I would be taking part in acting rehearsals for Christmas themed events as Santa Claus.  This is marked in the attachment “MK parking locations”.

When parking at the Witan Gate East location I walked toward the Leonardo Hotel and tried numerous times to pay by phone with Ringo as I had done the prior evening when I parked near the EasyHotel just off Silbury Road.  Given the distance between the two parking locations (250m or so), I did not realise that the location code for both of those areas was the same on the signs.

After a number of failed attempts to pay by phone where the transaction would freeze I gave up and returned to the pay and display machine on Witan Gate East, approximately 60-65metres from where my vehicle was parked.  There were three people queuing before me to purchase a pay and display ticket, one of whom was particularly slow.  I did however finally manage to pay for a ticket which I have attached with these representations, timestamped at 10:49 to cover 6 hours of parking, 8 minutes after the PCN issued by your CEO.  I didn’t notice a CEO around my vehicle at the time I tried to pay and seems I might have missed them by only a couple of minutes or so.  Had I seen them, I would have approached them and mentioned my issues and that I was in the process of getting a physical ticket.

It seems I was also caught out by the fact that Witan Gate East and the parking near the EasyHotel shared the same location code, which is typically unusual for other towns and cities, where even opposite sides of the road can have different codes.  This unfortunately meant I was not aware that I technically had a parking session that already applied for Witan Gate East and as such would have an even shorter amount of grace period in which to pay for time.

I would be grateful if you exercised discretion, given the good faith shown in trying to obtain a ticket via pay by phone and then getting a physical ticket when that failed.

The gap in time of merely 8 minutes between the issuance of the PCN and the purchase of the physical ticket to cover a 6 hour parking session also strikes me as being a de minimis or trivial contravention.

I hope with the information above, you can find grounds to cancel the PCN in this instance.


Their rejection:




Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #6 on: »
Your challenge was rather too long and convoluted but their response is reasonable given the very long gap in starting a new session.

As the discount hasn't been reoffered no reason not to go on to NTO but you need to focus on something in say two paras that they must consider such as issues with Ringgo.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2024, 04:58:22 pm by stamfordman »

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #7 on: »
NTO received yesterday.  See below







First glance I can't see any glaring issues with it but will check more thoroughly tomorrow and any pointers welcome.  Will post up more concise reps here before submitting.

Does earlier submission of reps increase chance of them re-offering the discount or is it just policy to encourage payment over tribunal regardless of when reps are submitted within the 28 day window?

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote
Does earlier submission of reps increase chance of them re-offering the discount or is it just policy to encourage payment over tribunal regardless of when reps are submitted within the 28 day window?
The regulations give you 28 days and you are entitled to use the full 28, but do be aware that reps have to be received within the 28 days, not just sent off.

Of course if they don't re-offer the discount, it is a total no-brainer to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. If you lose you pay the full PCN penalty, which the council retain, but they have to pay the adjudication fee and also prepare the evidence pack so it's not a total win for them. And of course, if you win, you pay nothing but the council still have to pay those costs.

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #9 on: »
So reps are due by midnight on the 12th.  Here's what I have drafted and appreciate it still may be a bit long:

Dear Milton Keynes Council

On the 5th of November, I drove into Milton Keynes and parked near the EasyHotel just off Silbury Road where I was staying overnight as marked with the blue star in the attachment “MK Parking locations”.  This would have been the first time I had ever visited the city.

Later on the morning of the 6th I moved and parked my vehicle at the Witan Gate East location given in the PCN as I needed to take some bulky items to the Leonardo hotel for acting rehearsals as Santa Claus.  I genuinely thought I had paid by phone via Ringo for a new parking session in a different location.  Not familiar with MK city centre, I did not realise Witan Gate East and the EasyHotel location in fact shared the same location code (even though they are hundreds of metres apart) for pay by phone and that my Ringo session had not actually gone through, presumably as I was trying to book the session from a start time that overlapped into the end of my 5th November parking session.

I tried multiple times to pay for the 6th November parking session.  With mounting frustration, I took a screenshot of the session I had tried to book at 10:33am to cover the prior time I had intended to pay for, before any CEO issued ticket, attached in the file “Ringo 6th November Attempt”.  Upon the transaction/payment screen once again freezing, I gave up and returned to the car park to pay at a machine about 60-65m from my vehicle.  There was a queue of 3 people before me, one of whom was slow to purchase a ticket.  I finally managed to get a ticket at 10:49, 8 minutes after the PCN time, for 6 hours of parking to cover the rest of the day.

I would be grateful if you exercised discretion, given the good faith shown in persistently trying to obtain a ticket via pay by phone and then getting a physical ticket when that repeatedly failed.


As an aside, their online representation portal seems to not list any statutory grounds, I'm guessing not worth adding a point about that at this stage?






Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #10 on: »
Apropos their webpages for submitting reps...

Whoever supplies this ChallengeSmarti software seems to know absolutely nothing about the regulations and the statuory grounds for representations.They even use the word 'appeals' ! For me, this website and its flawed pages is a major procedural impropriety on its own, and I wonder what Hippocrates thinks of it.

As they haven't reoffered the discount, if they also refuse your reps against the NtO, and again, don't re-offer the discount, I would take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal on the basis of procedural impropriety. Your liability is the PCN penalty, but they must pay the TPT fee and prepare an evidence pack so they don't get all of that £50.

Yet another stupid council !
« Last Edit: February 10, 2025, 12:14:02 am by Incandescent »

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #11 on: »
I thought so with respect to the online (non) grounds. I guess councils just need a lean revenue machine and most people wouldn't risk or know technical points to argue at tribunal.

I'll submit those reps tonight just for peace of mind. 

I reckon my brother will hope they re-offer the discount and just pay it as he accepts it was his oversight although I would feel this type of incident should warrant discretion.

I will update on the council response.

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #12 on: »
Good news in the post:



Thanks again for the guidance.

Until next time.

Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
« Reply #13 on: »
Well done - joy from Miss Joy  :)