Author Topic: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN  (Read 108 times)

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Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
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Hi

I received this PCN from Havering Council. From the PCN, I'm unclear on what I did wrong. I went online and looked at the footage. There is a video of me driving through this road, but I'm still unclear on what I did wrong.

I also tried looking for this street on google maps street view to figure out if there was any signage indicating what I might have done wrong, but I just can't seem to find the road that match the appearance of the photo. It doesn't help that the location identifier is so vague - it doesn't seem to even specify if this is Eastern Road or South Street.

Can anyone here tell me why I received this PCN? It doesn't feel fair to issue a PCN that's so vague I can't even figure out the contravention that took place. What are people's views - is this even a valid PCN?





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Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
The location of the photo appears to be here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/6BFyfqxfJL9P82fj9

and the prohibition is presumably the "no motor vehicles except for access" signed at the previous junction: https://maps.app.goo.gl/FcwGpMF3rS9X2UBY6

Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
I think it's here:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/zdnq4GyubysJ8eH2A?g_st=ac

There's a "no motor vehicles except solo motorcycles" sign a few metres back.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FBZ5NSnG4wt95ahH8?g_st=ac

Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
OK thanks. What does it mean that motor vehicles are prohibited "except for access"? I drove here to drop my wife and child off at the train station - is that allowed?

I was unsure whether I was allowed to stop on the road immediately in front of the station, so I drove ahead and stopped the car where I marked the "X" on the map below. Then I let my wife and son off and continued driving to a nearby car park. Does this class as "for access"?


Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
Presumably you were meant to follow the directions for "setting down point" on the signpost.

I'll agree that "except for access" signs always seem vague to me if you don't know the extent of the area which you're allowed to access.

Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
We have seen this location several times now, and appeals have been won at London Tribunals. This is a PCN from venal and rapacious Havering council, who do not re-offer the discount when rejecting representations. This means that if you submit representations to them, it is on the basis that they will reject them, as they always do, and you then register an appeal at London Tribunals. It is this or just cough-up and join the MUugged CLub.

Here are the signs you passed which are not at the junction of South St and Eastern Road: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uNhg1aSkkWKL5U2w5

There are two things you could argue cancellation of the PCN on: -

1. The PCN, and video does not show you passing any traffic sign barring motorvehicles.

2. You required access to the railway station and car park on Havana Close, so dropped off your passengers there, then parked in the multi-story car park

See this this case at London Tribunals: -
HG61116639
This covers inadequacy of signage and also access to premises.

Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
Hi all,

I submitted an appeal and received a response recently. I was wondering what you think are my chances of success if I take this forward to the Tribunal, and if there are any additional arguments/refinements I need to make to increase my chances of success.

My appeal was as follows:
"As context, I was dropping my wife and 7-year-old son at Romford train station. This PCN should be cancelled for 3 reasons:
1. The PCN was not clear on the contravention that took place. When I received it, I was unable to figure out what the contravention was even after reviewing the evidence, inspecting the location carefully on Google Maps and searching readily available online resources. The PCN and related evidence does not contain clear information regarding the contravention that occurred. There are no pictures of any signs in the evidence package that show what the vehicle restrictions were, and it is unclear from the PCN what type of vehicles are prohibited. I had to post about the PCN on ftla.uk simply to understand why I received the PCN at all. As per case 223050945A which was brought to the London Tribunals, the wording of this PCN is deficient since it does not clearly convey to the PCN recipient what prohibition was in force that was allegedly contravened. As in that case, no picture of the signage showing the nature of the vehicle restriction was provided by Havering Council in this PCN.
2. While travelling from our home in ******, my navigation automatically took me to South Street via a right-turn from Victoria Road. See the attached image for the route recommended by Google Maps. According to the images captured on Google Maps street view (see attached), from this angle, the signage regarding motor vehicle restrictions is not clearly visible. The signage is supposed to be clear, prominent and unambiguous. As per PCN HG61116639 that was assessed at London Tribunals, the signage at this junction was inadequate.
3. The signage indicates that motor vehicles are prohibited "except for access". In this case, I was dropping my wife and son off at the train station. While driving past the station, I assumed that I would not be allowed to stop directly in front of the station, and also that I could not stop in the loading bays since passenger drop-off is not permitted here. Instead, I travelled to Havana Close and stopped here to offload my 2 passengers. In the image "Where I parked.jpg", I have marked with an "X" the approximate location where I stopped. On Havana Close, there are double-yellow lines where stopping to offload passengers is permitted. Havana Close is only accessible from South Street. Therefore, in order to access Havana Close, passing through South Street is necessary. As a result, the PCN is invalid because the route was being used for access, which is explicitly permitted under the signage."

The response was as follows (also available here: https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/uDY1VJg.jpg):







Note that if turning right from Victoria Road onto South Street, I believe the sign in the second image of the PCN response would not be seen at all.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2026, 04:58:52 pm by pkchips »

Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
I will PM you as you need to add more technical stuff. I am happy to do this one for you.

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/time-to-step-up-to-the-plate/msg123333/#msg123333
« Last Edit: July 09, 2026, 06:56:02 pm by Hippocrates »
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Havering London Moving Traffic PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
THere is absolutely no point at all in paying now, as Havering have not re-offered the discount, so it is a total and absolute no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, because the penalty remains the same and there are now additional costs whatsoever. Appeals at this location have been won already and you are likely to win based on what you have told us.

I recommend strongly that you take up Hippocrates kind offer.