3. Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
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cp8759

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2025, 11:01:22 am »
@JOJO1209 as John says post up the NTO, also try writing a draft of your own and post it on here for review and we'll tidy it up for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
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ManxTom

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2025, 12:34:07 pm »
Apologies if I've got this wrong and I've completely misunderstood, but where does loading/unloading come into this?

The OP has said from the outset:

"...  Items included 6 bags of 20 kg special type of rice and 5 bags of 10kg Ground rice. I had to park as close as possible to the shop for easy access because of the weight, bulkiness and the number of items to be purchased and load into my car.
We have previously purchased these items from them that store. None was available on the shop floor. The shop assistant had to go into their stock room to check if they had any at the back.
They didn’t have any in stock but they can order it in for me. This process took a while about 5-6 mins. Came back to my car to find a PCN."  [My bold for emphasis]

I understand that to mean the the OP made a speculative journey to the cash and carry to purchase rice that they had not pre-ordered.  When they got there the cash and carry didn't have what the OP wanted, so the store ordered it in for her, and she left empty-handed.

That isn't loading, is it?  Or have I completely misunderstood?
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JOJO1209

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2025, 01:57:03 pm »
Quote from: John U.K. on January 25, 2025, 08:08:29 am
Please post up all sides of the NtO, redacting only yr name & address.


Okay will do that tonight when I am home.
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JOJO1209

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2025, 11:58:33 pm »
Please see attached NTO dated 15.01.25
I will greatly appreciate help with a draft representative.
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cp8759

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2025, 08:23:03 pm »
Draft reps:

Dear Medway Council,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because there was no adequate signage to inform me of any waiting restriction, and in any event I was stopped for the purposes of loading goods, which is an exempt activity.

Further to this, there is nothing in the Medway Council (Chatham Town Centre) (Traffic Regulation) Order 2024 creates a waiting restriction at the relevant location, it follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online via the council website and take a screenshot of the confirmation page. Do not provide any photos, we don't want this to be one of those cases that gets to the tribunal and the best photos of the signs are the ones you've provided yourself!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2025, 01:12:09 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
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JOJO1209

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2025, 03:56:53 pm »
Thanks for this. I am new to making a formal representation.
Appreciated.

Did you manage to get the Traffic Order for the street / area? . You were going to check it out as per your comment back in December.
Thanks
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cp8759

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2025, 06:46:01 pm »
The traffic order is in post 39 above, I haven't had a chance to go through it with a fine tooth comb yet but maybe someone else will check it, if not I'll go through it once you have the response from the council. Or maybe you'll spot something useful in the order?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

H C Andersen

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2025, 08:12:52 pm »
The traffic order doesn't create waiting restrictions, its component psrts are:

B Prohibitions of driving
C Prohibitions of driving
D Prohibited movements
E Weight restrictions
Loading bays


The order's a mess. What's the point of defining 'traffic sign' when traffic sign isn't mentioned subsequently?

In any event, IMO the restriction which the council are trying to enforce was not signed as required i.e. a no stopping sign as the lower panel on the PZ sign and RPZ repeater signs where no gateway signs are in situ.
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JOJO1209

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2025, 02:39:28 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on February 05, 2025, 08:12:52 pm
The traffic order doesn't create waiting restrictions, its component psrts are:

B Prohibitions of driving
C Prohibitions of driving
D Prohibited movements
E Weight restrictions
Loading bays


The order's a mess. What's the point of defining 'traffic sign' when traffic sign isn't mentioned subsequently?

In any event, IMO the restriction which the council are trying to enforce was not signed as required i.e. a no stopping sign as the lower panel on the PZ sign and RPZ repeater signs where no gateway signs are in situ.

@ HC Andersen
Thanks HC Andersen for going through the traffic order.
Based on what's in it
Do we add to  / amend  CP8759 draft rep above or just leave it ask it is.

Thanks
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cp8759

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2025, 02:43:38 pm »
@JOJO1209 it won't make much difference to the final outcome, but I suspect H C Andersen will suggest some additional wording.

The likelihood is that the officer dealing with the representations will not address the point because it's not as if they're going to actually look at the TRO and their templated rejection letters can't cope with this scenario, but you might get a failure to consider as an additional point to use on appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

The deadline for representations to be made is midnight on 13 February, whatever you do you must not miss that deadline, or else all is lost.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Incandescent

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2025, 10:36:16 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on February 08, 2025, 02:43:38 pm
@JOJO1209 it won't make much difference to the final outcome, but I suspect H C Andersen will suggest some additional wording.

The likelihood is that the officer dealing with the representations will not address the point because it's not as if they're going to actually look at the TRO and their templated rejection letters can't cope with this scenario, but you might get a failure to consider as an additional point to use on appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

The deadline for representations to be made is midnight on 13 February, whatever you do you must not miss that deadline, or else all is lost.
And don't forget the deadline is for their receipt by the council. OK if you're submitting on-line as you get the timed and dated response.
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cp8759

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2025, 01:12:43 pm »
@JOJO1209 I've amended the draft above to cover the traffic order point, we don't need loads of detail but it's enough to be a failure to consider if they simply ignore the point.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

H C Andersen

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2025, 02:07:02 pm »
I see nothing to be gained by lengthening the reps.

The signs are incorrect and contradictory for the restriction which they claim is in force and which doesn't even seem to be supported by a traffic order. They'll either accept their error or, because they're still judges in their own cause at this stage, bluster on hoping to bluff you out of your money, but this depends upon their mindset, not the merit of your arguments
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JOJO1209

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2025, 02:14:21 pm »
@H C Andersen
@cp8759

Thanks all. Grateful of all the comments, drafts,reading  the TMO etc.

I will make the formal representation online on their Website and see what they come back with.
I will post any update/ response I received.
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John U.K.

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Re: Medway Code 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2025, 02:22:30 pm »
Quote
I will make the formal representation online on their Website

Please to post draft here for comment before submitting, but do not miss deadlines.

EDIT

I should have spotted that you have a draft in Reply#49
« Last Edit: February 12, 2025, 04:09:56 pm by John U.K. »
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