Free Traffic Legal Advice

Hello, I hope you can help. I have been recommended to post here rather than to continue my topic on Pepipoo but I don't want to make you all have to ready a lot of text!

Thank you cp8759 and everyone here for continuing with this really helpful resource!

I have made an informal representation which was rejected and I now need to make a formal appeal against a notice to owner today! (I have just had to move house at short notice so that has dominated the last few weeks).

The last advice I received was to write a detailed description of the pedestrian route I took out of the carpark, and hopefully someone will be able to help me convert this into an appeal. I appreciate you are all busy people and I am working today as well so I will submit what I have rather than miss the opportunity, but any help would be appreciated!

Here are the documents received to date:

PCN Page 1
PCN Page 2
Receipt
Our representation
Notice of rejection page 1
Notice of rejection page 2
Notice to Owner page 1
Notice to owner page 2
Notice to owner page 3
Notice to owner page 4


Here is what I plan to write:

To whom it may concern,

I would like to challenge this PCN on Other Grounds: Namely unclear signage.

We visited Manchester City Centre on 6 April for a concert and parked at the Arndale Centre car park to visit a nearby restaurant beforehand. We are unfamiliar with the city centre and this was the nearest car park we found to where we needed to be, we haven't parked there before.

On driving into the car park we didn't see anything to indicate how or when to pay and there was no machine to take a ticket from on entering.

We drove through the carwash part of the car park (the carwash was closed and this area largely empty of cars) and parked on the far side of it. There was no signage or payment machine near where we parked. We looked around for a ticket machine or directional signage to one, even going over to the carwash payment booth, but did not find anything, nor anyone to ask.

The pedestrian route we took back out to the street was via a narrow doorway near the carwash booth that led to a narrow stairwell (very dirty and smelling of urine). There was no ticket machine and no information about how to pay or where to find one all the way out to the street, when we got outside. 

Based on the above we concluded thought it must be ANPR car park and expected to pay on leaving. However, we returned to the car by a different pedestrian route and encountered a pay machine then. We entered the registration number and the amount that came up was £3.70 so we paid that, assuming that was the total owing. 

When we returned to the car we found a PCN.

Please find my £3.70 payment receipt attached, as well as screenshots from our dashcam footage of arriving at the carpark which highlight the only instances where there may have been signage but even that was unclear. Unclear sign 1 shows a very creased banner at the entrance to the carpark, Unclear sign 2 shows a notice which may have had useful information, but it was over on the far side of the right lane as we turned left from the left hand lane, beyond view. 

Here is a link to the dashcam footage mentioned above:

We do have another clip inside the carpark but there is no signage visible on that one at all other than for the car wash.

Thank you for your consideration.

Regards, etc.

Thank you so much for your time!

Done. Thank you!

What a horrid carpark! And does not take cash, as presumably you don't discover this until too late.
Rant over.

In Nov 2020 there was a T&C board at the entrance



Tho' how anyone could read it without exiting the car and causing a hold-up I wot not!

By June 2023 it had disappeared, replace by a blue sign I could not decipher and a yellow sign blurred out


In June 2022 and in your first video the yellow sign is revealed as MaxHeight ( a bit late as it's alongside the height barrier...)

Thought above might help in showing inadequacy of signage.

--------------------

In the video revisited 1 at 1:17 there is a mini 'No Entry' sign which you pass - does this have any significance?

Also at 0:38 and 0:52 mini straight ahead one-way sign, at 0:58 a trurn right for valeting sign and
lastly at 1:56 a one way to right mini-sign.

There are a myriad of signs on the pillar to the left at 0:32, but cannot be read without stopping.

NOt sure of the whether any or all these help or hinder, but an adj. might ask about them.

I have been in touch with the Tribunal to confirm that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to appeal.

I am assuming this means
I have been in touch with the Tribunal who confirmed the appeal has been registered and that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to submit the appeal case.

Rather than
I have been in touch with the Tribunal to confirm that we can upload video footage as evidence and have until 10 August to register the appeal.

If you have not registered the appeal do so before the 10th, opt for personal (telephone) hearing , and ask for the deadline for submitting your evidence.

There was lots of clear signage for the carwash but not much else.

Not that clear - nothing to say 'Valeting only' .

Is that worth raising do you think?

----

I'm no expert, wait for an expert ot comment, but do not miss deadlines.

re: the NoR  -did you make reps exactly as in your opening post here?


One more thought

The sentence in the NoR beginning There are signs displayed at the location . . .

There may well be signs, but the test is that there are adequate signs to convey that it is pay on entry.

You might ask the Adj to recommend that there be placed large 'Pay on Entry at machines' signs at the entrance, and large 'Have you paid' signs at every pedestrian exit from the car park.

I haven't started the appeal yet

I see that you start the appeal here


From the FAQ at the bottom of that page (scroll down)

Explanation and evidence

You will then be asked to explain the circumstances of your appeal and will have the option to upload evidence. Our online system allows you to upload lots of different types of evidence, from photos, to scanned documents, to social media messages from your smartphone.

But don’t worry if you haven’t got all the evidence to hand straight away, you can provide it later.

AFAIK, once you have registered (started?) the appeal you can go on submitting evidence after the dealine for registering. But it would be as well to check with TPT.

@ads2021 would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?

I've sent you a PM.

Amazing! Thanks so much - worth persisting