Author Topic: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings  (Read 719 times)

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Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
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I'm hoping for some advice on a PCN received yesterday.

The infringement was parking over two bays, however as you can see below the ground markings have poor visibility, partially due to the paint wear and also being underwater from recent rainfall and inadequate drainage.

Due to the poor ground markings, the very prominent marks on the wall imply bay separation. I have no idea if this is land the council has bought or if the marks are illegal but either way its confusing to put it mildly.

I spoke to the warden as he was writing the ticket and so was able to get some feedback.
His first response on the ground markings being poor or not, was "They are there nonetheless".

Regarding the wall markings, The warden said that's nothing to do with the council.

I asked him how are people who don't live in the area supposed to know that the wall markings are invalid, and the council had a responsibility to remove them if they wanted to charge for infringements. He agreed it could be confusing and said he would pass on the feedback to the council (shown in the video) but I would have to dispute the ticket.


Video1



Google street view

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 03:47:35 pm by westyuk1 »

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Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #1 on: »

For others..3(1)(c)?

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #2 on: »

For others..3(1)(c)?
Yes - missing. IMHO this should win an appeal on its own, because it's an important message, and also a mandatory prt of a Reg 9  PCN.

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #3 on: »
There are various things going on here, but the starting point should be the ambiguous signage. Where the signage is ambiguous, there is no contravention, because the council is under an overriding duty to provide unambiguous signage.

However I would recommend you re-upload both your youtube videos, don't open them (i.e. keep the view count at zero), and put links to the re-uploaded version in the text of your representation.

This way if the council rejects it and the view count is still zero, you can conclusively prove the council has failed to look at your supporting evidence.

Throw in the 3(1)(c) point and you have an almost unanswerable appeal (don't worry about the wording for that, we'll provide that for you).

Try writing a draft and post it on here for review, and we'll tidy it up for you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #4 on: »
Thank you for the. quick responses, and appreciate the extra details cp8759.

Here goes draft 1!

>>>

[My Name]
[My Address]
[City, Postal Code]
[My Email Address]
[My Phone Number]
[Date]

[Council Name]
[Address]
[City, Postal Code]

Subject: Formal Dispute of Parking Charge Notification (PCN) - Ambiguous Signage and Poor Ground Markings

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally dispute the Parking Charge Notification (PCN) issued to me on [Date of PCN], reference number [PCN Reference Number]. I received the PCN for an alleged parking infringement related to parking over two bays at [Location of Parking]. I firmly believe that this charge is unjust, as the ground markings at the site have poor visibility, primarily due to the worn-away paint and also the recent heavy rainfall with inadequate drainage. Furthermore, the presence of very prominent marks on the wall directly in front implies bay separation, which only adds to the confusion.

I wish to submit the following points, along with the attached video and photographic evidence, to support my dispute:

URL1: [Video1]
URL2: [video2]

The video evidence provided clearly depicts the adverse conditions of the ground markings due to heavy rainfall and inadequate drainage. These conditions are entirely beyond my control as a driver and should not lead to a valid PCN.

Additionally, the photographic evidence illustrates the extent to which the ground markings have deteriorated and the very prominent marks on the wall, which are misleadingly suggestive of bay separation. This creates significant ambiguity for drivers, making it difficult to determine the exact boundaries of the parking spaces.

Due to the poor visibility of the ground markings, exacerbated by adverse weather conditions and misleading wall markings, I contend that the PCN should be canceled. The circumstances surrounding the parking situation were beyond my control, and the signage on-site is unclear and confusing.

I kindly request that you thoroughly review this dispute, taking into account the evidence presented. In accordance with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, I expect a response within 14 days of receiving this letter. Failure to provide a satisfactory response may result in further escalation of this matter, including seeking legal advice and submitting formal complaints to the relevant regulatory authorities.

Please acknowledge the receipt of this letter and any supporting evidence submitted. I trust that you will address this dispute in a fair and reasonable manner and aim for a prompt resolution to this issue.

Yours sincerely,
My Name

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #5 on: »
You've clearly used a template designed for private parking tickets, a few change are needed. Firstly all references to a Parking Charge Notice need to be swapped out for references to a Penalty Charge Notice (there's a big difference between the two).

All of this should be deleted:

I kindly request that you thoroughly review this dispute, taking into account the evidence presented. In accordance with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, I expect a response within 14 days of receiving this letter. Failure to provide a satisfactory response may result in further escalation of this matter, including seeking legal advice and submitting formal complaints to the relevant regulatory authorities.

Please acknowledge the receipt of this letter and any supporting evidence submitted. I trust that you will address this dispute in a fair and reasonable manner and aim for a prompt resolution to this issue.

Not least because the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice is completely irrelevant to a statutory penalty charge.

Other than that I think you've good to go.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks for reviewing!

I did use chat GPT and the PCN typo was my input error. I added the salient bits as bullets.

What about the point around 3(1)(c)?

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #7 on: »
I did use chat GPT and the PCN typo was my input error. I added the salient bits as bullets.
I don't think we need to worry too much about chat GPT making us all redundant any time soon.

What about the point around 3(1)(c)?
I'd keep that for the notice to owner stage, nobody reading the informal representations will have a clue that that is about and frankly the ambiguity of the markings is a much stronger point.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #8 on: »
I just got a response back from the council's Parking Services and after some finger-wagging, they have cancelled it.

Thank you for the prompt advice and assistance.




Dear

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE
VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER

Thank you for writing to us.

Although your Penalty Charge Notice was correctly given, we have cancelled it on this occasion.
You were issued a Penalty Charge Notice because part of your vehicle was outside the white lines of the parking bay.

You are not allowed to park like this even if you have paid to park, are displaying an item correctly (for example a permit or disabled badge) or other cars have not left you enough room.

If you get another Penalty Charge Notice in similar circumstances, we may not be able to cancel it.

Yours sincerely
Civil Enforcement Technical Officer

Re: Maidstone PCN (86) Poorly Marked / Confusing Bay Markings
« Reply #9 on: »
I'll add this in case it helps someone as I didn't know where to start with the response letter

I know using a template is frowned upon which is why I used chatGPT.

For reference, I used a prompt along these lines but the more creative you are the more likely it will be unique.

>>>

Go to: https://chat.openai.com/

Enter the following prompt:

Create a UK legal response to a PCN parking charge notification based in England. Dispute it on the following grounds.
1. The ground markings have poor visibility, partially due to the paint wear and also being underwater from recent rainfall and inadequate drainage. Refer to evidence A (URL:x1)
2. Due to the poor ground markings, the very prominent marks on the wall imply bay separation. Refer to evidence B (URL:x2)
Use a firm tone (swap firm for polite or whatever suits)

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order