3. LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
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LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
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Hello All,

I live in the Westcombe Park Area in London, and have parking permit for Zone W. Low traffic neighbourhood is currently on trial for 18months effective from end of 2024. Therefore there are quite a few new signs that prohibits drivers from entering certain roads at certain times.

About 2 weeks ago, I was looking for parking along Maze Hill, but as I was going down the hill, I couldn’t find one. Therefore I had to turn into Tom Smith Close to do a 3 point turn to go back up the hill to return to where I came from. I remember being very cautious looking out for signs that says no entry for the specific time and I did not see any. Also, it did not seem safe for me to just reverse all the way back up the hill.

I have now received a PCN from Greenwich Council because I have gone into Tom Smith Close during a prohibited time. In the video evidence they have provided, I could only see the sign from the opposite direction of travel. I have since gone back to the scene, but interestingly, the entire sign has been removed, so I can’t prove my innocence either.

I have attached the PCN, PCN Evidence, Google map view screenshot with the route I was doing and the photos of the scene with the removed signs I have taken yesterday.

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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #1 on: »
They've had trouble with signs as the linked story shows so maybe they're replacing them.

I think you may get off this because they may not be able to produce evidence you passed signs but surely you went through this filter both ways?

You can also say you did turn around. Must say if you passed the signs we can see in the video going that way I can't see how you missed them.

https://greenwichwire.co.uk/2025/01/01/greenwich-ltn-fines-will-be-issued-from-this-week-council-confirms/

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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: stamfordman on March 16, 2025, 05:24:55 pm
They've had trouble with signs as the linked story shows so maybe they're replacing them.

I think you may get off this because they may not be able to produce evidence you passed signs but surely you went through this filter both ways?

You can also say you did turn around. Must say if you passed the signs we can see in the video going that way I can't see how you missed them.

https://greenwichwire.co.uk/2025/01/01/greenwich-ltn-fines-will-be-issued-from-this-week-council-confirms/



Thank you Stamfordman. Have sent an appeal. Fingers crossed!
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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #3 on: »
Hello All,

I have received a Notice of Rejection of Representation from Greenwich council today :'(

1) Please see attached the Notice of Rejection. Even though they confirmed in the letter that there is signage on both directions, a part of me suspect that they do not have the evidence to confirm that there is signage at the direction of my travel to prove that I committed a contravention, as they did not furnish it in both the Notice of Rejection and the initial PCN.

Do you think I should appeal to the Environment & Traffic Adjudicator on the basis of the missing evidence at the direction of my travel i.e. The Contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur? I am worried that if I lose, I will then need to pay the full penalty amount.

2) This was the language of my first appeal submitted on 17/3/25

Reason for appeal: 'Any other reason'

Your answers:

-Question 1 : 'Please explain in as much detail as possible why you think your PCN should be cancelled'
        Answer : 'I have received a PCN from Greenwich Council stating that I have gone into Tom Smith Close during a prohibited time. In the video evidence provided, I could only see the sign from the opposite direction of travel, but not the sign in the direction of my travel. To double check, I have since gone back to the scene, but the entire sign has been removed (please see attached photo). As a result, I am not sure if a contravention has occurred?

Separately, even if the sign was there, there are no safe ways for me to turn back round when going down Maze Hill, without having to turn into the prohibited Tom Smith Close, unless I were to reverse all the way back up the hill, which does not seem safe.

3) Background of my case: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/ltn-sign-removed-after-pcn-issued/msg62980/#msg62980

I would greatly appreciate any advice and help on this matter.


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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #4 on: »


Therefore I had to turn into Tom Smith Close to do a 3 point turn to go back up the hill to return to where I came from.

In the video evidence provided, I could only see the sign from the opposite direction of travel, but not the sign in the direction of my travel.

?

The video you've posted shows your car passing the signs. We cannot see what's on your side, but we can see what's on the reverse...which if you made a 3-point turn you had already passed.

Setting aside your admissions, what is the totality of their evidence?

The prohibition is part-time therefore exiting during restricted hours cannot prove entry during those hours.
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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on April 08, 2025, 06:18:53 pm


Therefore I had to turn into Tom Smith Close to do a 3 point turn to go back up the hill to return to where I came from.

In the video evidence provided, I could only see the sign from the opposite direction of travel, but not the sign in the direction of my travel.

?

The video you've posted shows your car passing the signs. We cannot see what's on your side, but we can see what's on the reverse...which if you made a 3-point turn you had already passed.

Setting aside your admissions, what is the totality of their evidence?

The prohibition is part-time therefore exiting during restricted hours cannot prove entry during those hours.

They have only provided 3 pieces of evidence so far, and all in the PCN: 1) Video as shown in this thread 2) Photo of me exiting (not entering) 3) Photo of my license plate

No further evidence was provided in the Notice of Rejection, although they confirmed in writing that there are signs on both sides.

I wondering what if it’s a bluff and I should call it?
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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #6 on: »
@Vallee why don't you go back and check for signs? There are a few locations where there are only LTN entry signs but the camera enforces in both directions, and obviously if there are no signs that you would have passed at this particular location in your direction of travel then it is all a bluff. I can't remember if this is one of those locations but it's definitely worth checking, if there are no signs then it's a really easy appeal.

If the signs are indeed not there, get some photos to illustrate this.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #7 on: »
@cp8759 I just made another visit today, guess what, there are now new signs on both sides, but the signs are clearly different from the one in the PCN evidence! I have also discovered that there are actually only cameras positioned to take photos of the sign from the opposite direction of my travel (Please see photos attached). Can't seem to find any other cameras from the other side, which makes me suspect even stronger that they do not have the evidence to prove that there is a sign at the direction of my travel.

This is the summary of events:

1) 27/2/25: Contravention date. Not sure if there is a sign at my direction of travel.
2) 13/3/25: Received PCN, but evidence does not show a sign at my direction of travel, only opposite
3) 14/3/25: Went to the alleged contravention scene to investigate - the sign in entirety got removed. Yes, even the sign opposite the direction of my travel, as shown as evidence in my PCN was removed! Took photos (please see attached)
3) 15/3/25: Submitted appeal and the photos I took on 14/3/25 of the missing signs in entirety
4) 3/4/25: Greenwich Council rejected my appeal and confirmed in their letter that there are signs both ways on my contravention date, but did not provide evidence
5) 9/4/25: I went to visit the contravention scene again. Now there are new signs on both ways, but different from the one in the PCN - please see photos attached.

I also think that there is a possibility that the signs from my direction of travel were in the midst of being taken down to be replaced for new ones, and I got caught in between those timings.

I think I should be brave and try to fight this in the London Tribunal - any thoughts on how daunting and intimidating the opposition/ process will be? I am not even sure why the council did not concede during my first appeal.


Quote from: cp8759 on April 08, 2025, 11:36:02 pm
@Vallee why don't you go back and check for signs? There are a few locations where there are only LTN entry signs but the camera enforces in both directions, and obviously if there are no signs that you would have passed at this particular location in your direction of travel then it is all a bluff. I can't remember if this is one of those locations but it's definitely worth checking, if there are no signs then it's a really easy appeal.

If the signs are indeed not there, get some photos to illustrate this.

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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #8 on: »
Sorry to bang on about this point, but you started the thread by saying that you entered to road to execute a 3-point turn. It therefore follows that you must have passed the signs in evidence twice, once either way and within no more than a minute of turning in. And as we can see what's facing us - and therefore was facing you when you turned in- then 'not sure if there is a sign at my direction of travel' doesn't gel.
Which is why I asked what you wrote in your reps because IMO if you've already acknowledged passing these signs to do your turn - for the reasons you set out in your first post- then to, literally, do a 180 with your argument would be spotted by the adjudicator who will have your formal reps to hand.

We should see your reps.

But as I said, exiting during a part-time prohibition is not evidence of entering during the restricted hours. This is not a Road User Charging issue(where simply being on a road is proof enough, this is a moving traffic contravention and there must be proof that you passed the prohibition signs while they were in force. 
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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #9 on: »
I think H C Andersen makes a valid point, what did you say in the representations?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #10 on: »
Thank you so much for sharing and explaining. Very informative and helpful and I am very grateful!


@H C Andersen and @cp8759, please find below what I wrote in the appeal form.

“Reason for appeal: 'Any other reason'

Your answers:

-Question 1 : 'Please explain in as much detail as possible why you think your PCN should be cancelled

Answer : 'I have received a PCN from Greenwich Council stating that I have gone into Tom Smith Close during a prohibited time. In the video evidence provided, I could only see the sign from the opposite direction of travel, but not the sign in the direction of my travel. To double check, I have since gone back to the scene, but the entire sign has been removed (please see attached photo). As a result, I am not sure if a contravention has occurred?

Separately, even if the sign was there, there are no safe ways for me to turn back round when going down Maze Hill, without having to turn into the prohibited Tom Smith Close, unless I were to reverse all the way back up the hill, which does not seem safe.”


Quote from: H C Andersen on April 09, 2025, 05:24:50 pm
Sorry to bang on about this point, but you started the thread by saying that you entered to road to execute a 3-point turn. It therefore follows that you must have passed the signs in evidence twice, once either way and within no more than a minute of turning in. And as we can see what's facing us - and therefore was facing you when you turned in- then 'not sure if there is a sign at my direction of travel' doesn't gel.
Which is why I asked what you wrote in your reps because IMO if you've already acknowledged passing these signs to do your turn - for the reasons you set out in your first post- then to, literally, do a 180 with your argument would be spotted by the adjudicator who will have your formal reps to hand.

We should see your reps.

But as I said, exiting during a part-time prohibition is not evidence of entering during the restricted hours. This is not a Road User Charging issue(where simply being on a road is proof enough, this is a moving traffic contravention and there must be proof that you passed the prohibition signs while they were in force. 
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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #11 on: »
Separately, even if the sign was there, there are no safe ways for me to turn back round when going down Maze Hill, without having to turn into the prohibited Tom Smith Close, unless I were to reverse all the way back up the hill, which does not seem safe.”

Sorry, this doesn't fly. Find a safe and legal method. No point beating about the bush.
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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on April 09, 2025, 08:53:37 pm
Separately, even if the sign was there, there are no safe ways for me to turn back round when going down Maze Hill, without having to turn into the prohibited Tom Smith Close, unless I were to reverse all the way back up the hill, which does not seem safe.”

Sorry, this doesn't fly. Find a safe and legal method. No point beating about the bush.
Well as this is the representation that he made, there's no point in saying that it wouldn't fly: that's what he submitted and the fact that we could have come up with something better is neither here nor there, that boat has sailed.

The key issue at this point is whether to appeal or not, in order to succeed the council would need to show that at the relevant time there was a sign in place, and either they have timed library pictures to prove the point, or they don't.

The other consideration is that Greenwich has had staffing problems for years, and as a result it has a higher proportion than any other authority of cases where it simply doesn't submit any evidence at all, so you have a chance of simply winning by default.

If you do want to appeal I'll drop you a PM, in case you'd like to be represented.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #13 on: »
Always useful to give advice on an owner's reps just in case they might be considering advancing these at adjudication.

OP, I wouldn't.

But as yet we've not seen the notice of rejection as far I can see, so OP pl post.

A bit premature to think about appealing as there's so much more to be examined.
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Re: LTN Sign Removed After PCN Issued
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on April 10, 2025, 10:24:50 pm
Always useful to give advice on an owner's reps just in case they might be considering advancing these at adjudication.

OP, I wouldn't.

But as yet we've not seen the notice of rejection as far I can see, so OP pl post.

A bit premature to think about appealing as there's so much more to be examined.

Hello! Yes, I have posted the Notice of Rejection in my post in this thread on April 08, 2025, 05:24:54 pm. In any case, attaching it here as well for convenience.

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