3. Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood  (Read 1525 times)

0 Members and 341 Guests are viewing this topic.

Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« on: »
Hello!

I got caught in a Low Traffic Neighbourhood filter on the junction of Roupell Road and the South Circular (Lambeth Borough in London). It was my first time in a LTN and the car's navigation took me straight through it and I had a momentary lapse of concentration as a result.

I am not sure what appeal points I have, but here goes:

1) In the previous Pepipoo forum I had received advice from one seasoned user (I can't remember the full username, I think he had "redux" in his username) that as this is a GLA side road with double red lines, the Council should have evidence of approval from TfL to enforce fines. He included a reference of a previous case which had been successfully appealed on this basis as the Council couldn't provide evidence, but now I can't access that any longer with Pepipoo being down. Can someone please provide the previous case reference again if they are familiar with it?

2) The flowerbed filter is encroaching on to the double red lines. Is this allowed? I might be clutching at straws here

3) I don't think the advance warning sign (on the junction with Roupell Road and upper tulse hill road) is well positioned, visibility is partially blocked by tree branches as you turn on to the road and I don't recall seeing it as I drove past.

Attached are:
Google Street View location (please note the filter was introduced after this image was taken. You can see the filters if you search the location on Apple Maps): https://www.google.com/maps/place/Roupell+Rd,+London/@51.4447292,-0.1194996,17.79z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x4876043d7545b32f:0xed2053d4d091320d!8m2!3d51.4439173!4d-0.1186792!16s%2Fg%2F1tfkq72p?entry=ttu

First page of the PCN: https://ibb.co/PQ8LBBB (just realised on the sticky notes you need the car reg, so here it is: AJ21 NSZ)
Second page of the PCN: https://ibb.co/4PvFmHN
Council image 1: https://ibb.co/thJT0KK
Council image 2: https://ibb.co/nnGs46j

Images I took:
Flowerbed on red lines: https://ibb.co/GRrdNM0
Warning sign from the front: https://ibb.co/RSGxQyJ
warning sign from the side 1: https://ibb.co/BLJP0jM
Warning sign from the side 2: https://ibb.co/rd9wn2F
warning sign from the back: https://ibb.co/r3FNY2V
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 04:20:54 pm by IanO »
Logged

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook

Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #1 on: »
I think the red line argument can't work as the restriction doesn't appear to be on the red route part of the road. It looks like you approached the restriction while exiting Roupell Road onto the South Circular, so I'm not sure issues around advance warning signs will help.

The one thing that might make a difference is the traffic order, and the red route designation order, the traffic order is The Lambeth (Prescribed Routes) (No. 6) Traffic Order 2022 and I've requested the TFL designation order.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 02:50:26 pm by cp8759 »
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #2 on: »
I appreciate this CP! I don't have an expert eye for traffic orders, but from what you've shared from Lambeth it seems to be in good order...
Logged
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #3 on: »
This is simple. The time to pay on the PCN is wrong, it states 28/14 days from the date of service. The law is 28 days from the date of the PCN.

I won on this point at the tribunal against a different council in case 2230237633

The Appellant is represented by Mr D Dishman.

The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle made a prohibited turn (no right turn) when in Reede Road on 22 January 2023 at 16.38.

I have allowed this appeal because I find the PCN has incorrectly stated the period for payment of the reduced penalty amount as being '...14 days beginning with the date of service of this notice...'. The correct time period is '14 days from the date of the Notice'.

Accordingly, I find the PCN is not compliant with the regulations and not enforceable.

The appeal is allowed.

Happy to fight the PCN personally for you.
Logged
I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #4 on: »
oh wow I'm very surprised by that mrmustard, I thought the "14 days beginning with the date of service of this notice" was the correct phraseology, a lot of councils seem to use this so I didn't even think of questioning it (although I did see a separate one online from another user in Newham, London that says "14 days beginning with the date of this notice").
I did a google search but can't find any regulation or guideline outlining the correct phraseology that should be used, is this hidden in one of the Acts?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 05:01:45 pm by IanO »
Logged
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #5 on: »
How have Lambeth messed that up is beyond me, I've never seen this error from them I don't think.

Ian you're in good hands with mrmustard.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #6 on: »
Also remember this is a GLA side road so the Council must have agreement with TfL to enforce:-

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/121B

Mike
Logged
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: MMV Redux on June 15, 2023, 07:56:08 am
Also remember this is a GLA side road so the Council must have agreement with TfL to enforce:-

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/121B

Mike

Hi, doesn't the whole length of the side road need to have double red lines?
The flowerbed filters are after the red lines, so had a doubt if the approval from TfL is still required.
In one of my photos above you can see that the flowerbed filter encroaches marginally on top of the red lines, so in theory you could say the approval is required!
Logged
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #8 on: »
I don't think the TFL consent argument is viable here, but Mr Mustard has identified a virtually bomb-proof ground anyway, so it hardly matters.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 11:56:33 pm by cp8759 »
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #9 on: »
Hello,
I received what looks like a "cookie cutter" approach notice of rejection from Lambeth Council, see attached.
Are there any irregularities with the wording, please?
https://ibb.co/Rvz2hFg
https://ibb.co/ZSzf3xN
https://ibb.co/pjv9SPM
https://ibb.co/kG80Pxz

In any case I am planning on the following appeal:

"Per section 4, sub-section 8a (iv) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, a Penalty Charge Notice must state that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion.
The PCN actually issued by Lambeth Council incorrectly states that the discounted period applies 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice was served. The constitutes a procedural impropriety, and was subject to prior appeals (case number 2230237633 for reference".

How does that read?
I am leaving out the point on the red route following cp's comments, as it seems unclear if the obstruction is actually on the red route.
I would be grateful for insight from CP on case reference 2220882479 which he represented on, also against Lambeth. If the appeal on this was allowed because of the same issue, it may be worth me mentioning this too in the appeal?
thank you
Logged
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: IanO on June 14, 2023, 04:56:31 pm
oh wow I'm very surprised by that mrmustard, I thought the "14 days beginning with the date of service of this notice" was the correct phraseology, a lot of councils seem to use this so I didn't even think of questioning it (although I did see a separate one online from another user in Newham, London that says "14 days beginning with the date of this notice").
I did a google search but can't find any regulation or guideline outlining the correct phraseology that should be used, is this hidden in one of the Acts?
There is a lot of separate legislation that gives power to issue PCNs to councils and Transport for London. Some defines the pay/appeal periods as from date of service and some from date of the PCN. Yes, it's a total mess, but as Mr Mustard says, if the council fail to read the relevant legislation and associated regulations, and get it wrong on the PCN, they can lose at adjudication
Logged
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #11 on: »
IanO would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #12 on: »
Hello, just adding this additional note from Lambeth after I pointed out the discrepancy in the discounted period from “date of notice” vs “date of service of the notice”
https://ibb.co/4TrzMwF

Thank you CP for the offer, I’ve sent the email!
Logged
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #13 on: »
Appeal has been filed.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood
« Reply #14 on: »
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »
  3. Lambeth council contravention 52 on Roupell Road - Low Traffic Neighbourhood