Author Topic: London Borough of Redbridge, (31j) Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited, HORNS ROAD (A)  (Read 1253 times)

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This PCN was issued by Redbridge Council who claim that the driver was in breach of S.31j 'entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited'. This is alleged to have taken place on Horns Road (A).

Vehicle Reg:- BX69NLL
Penalty Charge Notice Number : AF21125797
Vehicle Make: Mini
Vehicle Model: COOPER CLASSIC AUTO
Contravention: (31j) Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
CEO Number: 066
Car Park / Street Name: HORNS ROAD (A)
Date and time of recorded contravention: 16th November, 2025 at 12:37 PM

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Full details in clear order can be found here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/117cacVSwC08j_N3_2gVAx1It6bkIWAbt .
Numbering in the Drive file is as follows:-
1. is the PCN
2. evidence supplied by Council
3. Google Maps supplementary docs (the location can also be found here:- https://maps.app.goo.gl/RjFRQGDaVnqPLbqZ9)

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Facts:-

1. The driver exited Uppark Drive, (by the B&Q in Newbury Park turning right into Horns Road) behind an extremely large lorry

2. The driver was paying attention to:-

- oncoming traffic;
- location of the lorry;
- pedestrians; and
- all other laws of the road

3. It is submitted that the driver couldn't have reasonably expected a) the pedestrian light immediately after the box junction from becoming red, and, together with, b) at the same time as the driver was already halfway across the box junction. Due to size of the lorry, having to stop in the box became inevitable and was unavoidable, through no fault of the driver.

4. Driver wasn't blocking junction as a car turned right into Perrymans Farm Road by going directly behind the driver

5. The motorcyclist found himself in a similar situation but due to the comparative size of the motorbike was able to shimmy to the right of the junction avoiding it; the driver of the car could not

6. The only possible alternative here would have been for the driver to evade the box junction by going into the gap on the left of the lorry (dangerous and possibly illegal - undertaking)

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Looking forward to hearing from you if you have any thoughts or guidance here! :-)



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Legally-trained, non-practising - just on a vendeta against tyranny  ::)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2025, 08:08:51 pm by bestfootie »

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Frankly, the video shows the contravention as made out. You drove straight out of the side road without stopping or even slowing down, while the truck was still making its turn, and then the truck stopped for the pedestrian crossing leaving you in the box. I can't see a win here at London Tribunals, sorry to have to say it.

Others may suggest a winning appeal argument, so wait a bit. Do be aware that the council will reject any reps you submit, so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty.

I hear you man and thanks for replying.

I’m thinking the street name is not a valid street. I don’t know of any road called Horns Road (A) - so the offence didn’t take place?

I hear you man and thanks for replying.

I’m thinking the street name is not a valid street. I don’t know of any road called Horns Road (A) - so the offence didn’t take place?
Ha, Ha, if only it were that easy !
 The (A) is probably a code for a camera on that street, but that's just a guess, others may know. I'm not London-based.
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A couple of potential appeal points (neither are a guaranteed win)

1) The location stated on the PCN is vague.  Horns Road is about 1 mile long and there's no indication in the PCN which of its many junctions is being referred to [albeit I can only see one box junction which slightly weakens this argument]

2) Strictly speaking, you may be in scope of the turning right exemption.  This is worded in the legislation as follows:

"The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) [i.e. entering and stopping in a box junction] does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and

(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."

So, if you entered the box junction for the purpose of turning right [which you did] AND you only stopped in the box junction for as long as you were prevented from completing your right turn by another vehicle which was stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn [i.e. the lorry], then you are exempt from the stopping in a box junction contravention.

My interpretation from the video is that the lorry had not completed it's right turn, as part of it was still in the box and it hadn't fully aligned with Horns Road.  An adjudicator may not see it this way however.

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Thanks everyone so far… anyone else got any other ideas ?

my first link in my profile.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Hi there, thanks for the reply. Don’t see any link in your profile? If you mean the first post I think that may have changed due to replies you made on other posts.

Can you send the link here? Thanks so much

my first link in my profile.

Do you mean this?:-

Quote

PCN omits mandatory information.


I make this collateral challenge against the validity of the PCN as it is missing mandatory information as provided at Para. 4 (8 ) (v) of

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted

 (v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the
end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable.
 Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):
 (iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the
end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

Therefore, it follows that the statement: If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make  representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £240 may be payable. adds to the lack of clarity
by its omission. Even on its own, whether the required information was included or not, it is also arguable that it conflates the two periods using the word "or" which many would view as being
conjunctive. Furthermore, even if the statement were to be interpreted disjunctively, there is still no clarity due to the missing information


IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Like Like x 1 View List

Thanks.

You mean just this should be enough? No need to address any of the alleged facts?

Ticket should be cancelled for procedural reasons?

IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

great, thanks all. This was submitted today.

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Parking & Traffic Enforcement
London Borough of Redbridge

Re: Penalty Charge Notice AF21125797 - Vehicle BX69 NLL (Mini Cooper Classic Auto)

The recipient of this PCN makes informal representations against the above Penalty Charge Notice, issued for an alleged contravention “31j - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited” on Horns Road (A) on 16 November 2025 at 12:37.

If the matter proceeds to London Tribunals, which it will unless the PCN is cancelled forthwith, the driver will say the following:-

1. Factual circumstances - vehicle stopped only because the lorry ahead was forced to stop

The vehicle exited Uppark Drive by B&Q, turning right into Horns Road behind a very large articulated lorry. The driver’s attention was on:

- oncoming traffic on Horns Road

- the position and path of the lorry ahead

- pedestrians and the nearby pedestrian crossing

- general compliance with the Rules of the Road

When the vehicle entered the box junction, the lorry was still completing its right turn into Horns Road. The driver followed it for the sole purpose of turning right into the same lane. While the vehicle was already committed and part-way through the box, the pedestrian signals immediately beyond the box changed to red. The lorry then had to stop for the pedestrian crossing, leaving the rear of the lorry still partly in the box area, so that the driver was forced to stop with the rear of the vehicle in the box.

The vehicle did not block cross-traffic. A car turned right into Perrymans Farm Road behind the vehicle, passing directly behind it. A motorcyclist in a similar position was able, due to the smaller size of the motorcycle, to filter past to the right of the lorry and clear the box. In a car, such a manoeuvre would have been unsafe and potentially unlawful.

Once the pedestrian lights changed and the lorry stopped, it became inevitable that the vehicle would come to a standstill with part of it in the box, through no fault of the driver. The vehicle moved forward and cleared the box as soon as the lorry and the lights allowed.

2. Statutory right-turn exemption applies

The prohibition conveyed by a yellow box junction is defined in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD), Schedule 9, Part 7, paragraph 11. Paragraph 11(1) provides that the marking “conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”.

Paragraph 11(3) then creates a specific exemption at junctions within paragraph 11(6)(a). It provides that the prohibition in paragraph 11(1) “does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who - (a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and (b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.”

In this case:

- The vehicle entered the box solely for the purpose of turning right from Uppark Drive into Horns Road
- The vehicle stopped within the box only because the lorry ahead, which was itself in the process of turning right, became stationary in front of the vehicle while still partly within the box area, having been forced to stop by the red pedestrian signal immediately beyond the junction.

On those facts, the driver falls squarely within the paragraph 11(3) exemption and no contravention of paragraph 11(1) occurred.

3. Vague and inaccurate locus - “Horns Road (A)”

The PCN describes the location as “HORNS ROAD (A)”. Horns Road is approximately one mile long and contains numerous junctions and several sets of traffic signals. “Horns Road (A)” is not a recognised street name. The suffix “(A)” appears to be no more than an internal coding used by the authority and provides no assistance in identifying which junction or which yellow box is in issue.

A PCN issued under section 4 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 must state “the grounds on which the council… believe that the penalty charge is payable”, which plainly includes a clear and accurate locus so that the recipient can understand and, if necessary, check the signage and markings at the alleged location.

By using an imprecise and partly fictitious location description, the PCN fails to identify the alleged junction with sufficient particularity and is therefore defective for vague locus.

4. PCN omits and mis-states mandatory information about the increased charge

Paragraph 4(8) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 sets out the mandatory information that a moving-traffic PCN must contain. In particular:

- Paragraph 4(8)(iii) requires the PCN to state “that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice”

- Paragraph 4(8)(v) requires the PCN to state “that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable”.

The wording on this PCN, however, states:

“If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £240 may be payable.”

This is non-compliant in several ways as the PCN:

- replaces “the date of the notice” with “the date of service of this notice”, thereby misstating the statutory time-reference for the 28-day payment period;

- links the issue of a charge certificate to a failure either to pay or to make representations, when the legislation ties the increased charge solely to non-payment of the penalty charge by the statutory deadline; and

- fails to include, as a separate and clear statement, the mandatory provision that “the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice”, instead conflating payment and representation time-limits in a single, confusing sentence.

As has been recognised in other analyses of similar PCNs, this wording omits mandatory information and conflates the payment and representation periods, rendering the PCN unclear and misleading.

The result is that the statutory requirements of paragraph 4(8)(iii) and (v) are not met and the PCN is invalid.

5. Request for cancellation and disclosure

For the reasons above, namely:-

a) the factual circumstances and the wording of TSRGD 2016 Schedule 9 Part 7 paragraph 11 mean that the right-turn exemption applies and no contravention occurred;

b) the location “Horns Road (A)” is vague and inaccurate; and

c) the PCN fails to comply with the mandatory requirements of paragraph 4(8)(iii) and (v) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003,

the recipient respectfully requests that the Council cancel this Penalty Charge Notice forthwith.

Should the Council decline to do so, the owner will pursue the matter to London Tribunals and will rely on all points set out above. In that event, the owner requests, pursuant to the duty of disclosure, that the Council provide:

- a full copy of the CCTV footage relied upon;
- copies of all still images; and
- a copy of the Traffic Management Order and any special authorisation relating to the yellow box junction at this location.

Yours faithfully

Hi all, notice of rejection received from arseholes at Redbridge dated 3 December 2025. According to 14 day deadline, have until 17 December 2025 to pay at reduced rate.

Here's the link. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AG9WkKcfQJis-cgjG47O4HHBZIY8foIG/view?usp=drive_link

Let me know next steps! :)

Any advice here? Pay or fight?