3. Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
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Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: ttn48 on March 24, 2024, 04:02:29 pm
Thanks very much for all the advice.  It is very much appreciated.

For my draft response to the NTO, the online form only allows one of the 'specified grounds' boxes to be ticked, so I shall reply by post - using the Royal Mail 'Signed for' service to ensure it is received.
@ttn48 I would strongly recommend you make representations online. The website might limit what you can say or what boxes you can tick, but the solution is to stick everything into a PDF file and upload it as an attachment.

Sending something signed-for is no guarantee of delivery, it simply creates a (somewhat hit and miss) record of whether it has actually been delivered. The only guaranteed service is special delivery, but that costs almost £7 nowadays.

I'd suggest putting the representation in a PDF and getting a screenshot of the confirmation page is the way to go. Other than that your representation is amongst the best I've seen from a new member.

In the meantime I'll request the traffic order.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2024, 11:57:14 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
« Reply #16 on: »
In fact I had already sent in my representation when I read your last post, @cp8759, and this was the representation I made:-


.
I have today received the notice of rejection.
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This is my summary of their responses to the three points in the representation.
1) The contravention did not occur
- they say it did because a traffic cone is enough.
2) Procedural impropriety (A regulation 9 PCN must include wording that representations "must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.")
- This confused them, I think, and me. 
An additional piece of maybe relevant information is that before they had sent the NTO I had (foolishly) submitted a 2nd informal representation with points 1 and 2 in.  They replied at that point (21 Feb) to say 'a further attempt at an informal challenge is not possible', and 'The second challenge you submitted will be held on file until you have submitted your formal representation'. 
They seemed to think I was complaining about them not considering my 2nd informal representation - but of course I wasn't.
3) Procedural impropriety (28 day period wrong) - they kinda disagree.
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Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
« Reply #17 on: »
I can imagine them saying in the office, "who is this guy !"

Good luck and hope you win, BTW
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Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
« Reply #18 on: »
The suspended parking is pay and display parking which requires an order made under sections 45 and 46 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and therefore I don't think they've quoted the correct Traffic Regulation Order in their notice of rejection since they don't quote these sections. No waiting cones are for use where a temporary traffic order or notice imposes a temporary no waiting restriction (a code 01 PCN), they're not a traffic sign authorised to convey a parking place suspension. If they were, there would be no need for the DfT to authorise applications from councils seeking authority to place parking suspension signs.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 08:43:57 pm by Phantomcrusader »
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Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
« Reply #19 on: »
I think they'd lose on the first point. That being said, they've not reoffered the discount so there's no reason not to go the full distance.

These two cases come to mind:

Richard Mills v Transport for London (2180309331, 15 September 2018)
James Cox v West Sussex County Council (with Mid Sussex DC) (XS00001-2101, 19 February 2021)

I'm going to drop you a PM in case you would prefer to be represented.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 03:07:21 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
« Reply #20 on: »
@ttn48 well I've not heard back from you but here is The Kingston upon Hull City Centre (Controlled Parking Zone) Order 2018.

The relevant entry is on page 52:

the east side from a point 47 metres south of the southern kerbline of Liberty Lane in a southerly direction to a point 75 metres south of the southern kerbline of Liberty Lane

I'm not convinced it is marked correctly.

Further to this, article 8(2) of the order provides that when suspending a bay:

(2) Any person suspending the use of a parking place or loading bay or any part thereof in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (1) or paragraph (2) of this Article shall thereupon -
(a)Place or cause to be placed, at parking bays controlled by a pay and display ticket machine, a traffic sign indicating that waiting is prohibited

Section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 says that any traffic sign must be:

(a) specified by regulations made by the relevant authority , or
(b) authorised by the relevant authority,

As the devices they have used are neither specified by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 nor specifically authorised by the secretary of state, there was no traffic sign as required by article 8(2) of the order, so there was no suspension in force.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market Place
« Reply #21 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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