Author Topic: Lewisham Council - 53j Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone - Culverley Road  (Read 1202 times)

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Good Afternoon,

PCN: https://imgpile.com/p/UuVI4H0

Map: https://maps.apple/la/XU7roZcjGjgSNV 

From the PCN received, the alleged contravention occurred at 9:14:26, the restriction ends at 9:15. I checked the clock in my car as I entered the road and the time was showing as 9:15. Obviously this is the only clock I would have access to in that moment as opposed to whatever clock Lewisham council are using, so I was reliably informed by this. Given that we are talking 34 seconds prior to the restriction ending, would this count as De Minimis?

One other point, which may have no bearing at all, is the visibility and volume of signage as shown in the map. Can any argument be made that on the left hand side of the road (where I entered from), the signage relating to the 'School Street' restriction is partially obscured by the 7.5t sign directly in front of it? There is a sign regarding the pedestrian zone on the other side of the road (one of four road signs on that side all on top of one another), but in total there are seven road traffic signs that a driver would have to take into account when entering that junction. Is there any basis of argument under either visibility and / or confusion due to the sheer volume of signs a driver is expected to have read?

Any advice gratefully received. Thank you.

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De minimis is the way to go as from what you say you know or saw the signs and checked your clock so the alternative challenge of not seeing signs wouldn't be true?


Thank you for the prompt response, it is much appreciated.

I saw the sign on entering the road, which was what prompted me to check my clock.

My initial wondering when pointing out the signage was whether it was fit for purpose and adequate for enforcing restrictions. Whilst I was fortunate enough to spot the relevant sign in this instance, it would not necessarily have been difficult for a driver to have missed it due to the ordering, positioning and volume of signs on entering this junction. Appreciate this argument would be considered subjective and for my case perhaps the only thing that matters is whether or not I saw the relevant sign.

I will certainly argue on the basis of De minimis. I just wondered if there was anything else that could add any additional weight.

Many thanks

Just be aware that in this benighted country of ours, councils are now the new Robber Barons, and venal, rapacious, and mendacious with it. So don't be surprised if they reject your reps. They do this to all reps because the know that virtuallu all people then cough-up knowing little about the law, so assume the council does know, and they pay the discount to make it all go away.

The time can be a good argument that can win at tribunal see  218015398A

Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons   
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Clovelly Avenue at 4.14pm on 8 March 2018.

I have looked at the CCTV footage and also the site images submitted by the Council. These show that Mr Byanouni's vehicle was stopped on entrance markings in front of Colindale Primary School. They also show that there is a sign at the location warning motorists that there is no stopping on the entrance markings between 2.45pm and 4.15pm Mondays to Fridays.

Mr Byanouni appeals because he says that he stopped to pick up his children from school. He says that he is well aware of the restrictions and that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. The Council says that its clock is calibrated according to the Atomic Clock, ensuring 100% accuracy. The CCTV timing shows the vehicle stopping at 4:14:18.

I accept the evidence of Mr Byanouni that the clock in his car showed the time of 4.15pm. I find that the alleged contravention did not occur. There must be some application of common sense. Motorists cannot all be expected to wear time pieces calibrated to the exact second according to the Atomic Clock. A motorist reading an ordinary watch will not be able to know the time calculated to the exact second.


Thanks for finding this case.

Thank you to everyone who has replied and @Pastmybest for finding that very useful case.

Is it worth me referring to any case history in my representation or is this only really considered at appeal?

I get the impression from the responses I could write the most entirely convincing argument at this stage, but the council will still likely reject it just to call my bluff and see if I simply cough up the £80 to bring an end to the matter.

We have lots of cases to refer to. It's best to cite at the tribunal if necessary. The council knows full well it's trying it on.

This type of clock issue is adjudicator dependent but anything within a minute is usually a good case. Some can be very generous as below.

-------------------------


Case reference   2250224565
Appellant   xxxxx
Authority   London Borough of Lambeth
VRM   EK12FAO
   
PCN Details
PCN   LJ3241877A
Contravention date   17 Mar 2025
Contravention time   09:26:00
Contravention location   Elmcourt Road
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Fail comply restriction vehicles entering ped zone
   
Referral date   -
   
Decision Date   02 Sep 2025
Adjudicator   Belinda Pearce
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons   1. The Enforcement Authority assert that the said vehicle, being of a class prohibited, was driven at a location at a time when restricted for use by pedestrians and vehicles of an excepted class only.
2. The Appellant denies liability for the ensuing Penalty Charge Notice on the basis of the prevailing circumstances and challenge as stated in the written representations..
3. The Enforcement Authority who assert that the said vehicle was so driven contrary to an operative restriction is obliged to adduce evidence to the requisite standard to substantiate that assertion:-
The evidence upon which the Enforcement Authority rely comprises copy Penalty Charge Notice, governing Traffic Management Order provisions, together with contemporaneous photographic evidence: CCTV footage and still frames taken there-from images showing the said vehicle passing signage notifying motorists of the restriction.
The Enforcement Authority adduce further images of the signage at the location.
4. The evidence adduced by the Enforcement Authority was examined to evaluate the allegation in conjunction with the Appellant's representations.
The restriction at the location is intermittent; the morning period of operation is from 8.15 until 9.30 a.m.
The point of issue of the Penalty Charge Notice is 9.26 a.m.
The contemporaneous capture shows, by virtue of the clock counter integral to the camera, that the said vehicle passes the signage at 09:26:27.
The Appellant contends that such time may not have 'matched with her car's clock. '
5. Since the signage does not display an integral clock, motorists are obliged to accept the reliability of their own time-informing methods.
Unless signage is accompanied by a clock evidencing the time upon which the Enforcement Authority rely, variations will occur.
Indeed no evidence is adduced to establish the accuracy of the clock integral to the camera.
Evidentially I cannot be satisfied that the contravention occurred, accordingly I Allow this Appeal.

If you're not prepared to risk the full PCN penalty, then inevitably you will join the Mugged Club because councils reject virtually ALL representations, knowing that people then cough up, (like >95%)

IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Good Morning,

I wondered if anyone would be so kind as to give my draft below a quick once over.

@Hippocrates, I didn't quite follow the information at the link provided - am I also able to challenge on the grounds that the PCN is omitting mandatory information? If so should I add something to this effect to the below?

"I am writing to challenge the Penalty Charge Notice: <insert PCN number>

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur but even if it did, it must be de-minimis.
 
According to the clock in my car I passed the signs at 09:15, after the restriction had ended.
 
The signage was not accompanied by a clock demonstrating the time upon which the London Borough of Lewisham relies. In the absence of such, I was obliged to rely solely upon the time shown on my car’s clock meaning that some variation must be accepted between my vehicle’s clock and the clock on the enforcement authority’s camera.

But even according to your video I passed the signs with only 33 seconds remaining of the restricted period. The minimal and arguable timing is so close as to be considered immaterial. I would add that imposing such an unduly harsh penalty (a minimum of £80 with discount) is disproportionate for such a trivial transgression. The alleged contravention can only be considered a minimal infraction and the principle of de-minimis applies.

In light of the above the penalty charge should be cancelled."




Looks OK, it makes the good point that if the council are going to Serve PCNs based on seconds within the controlled hours, then they should erect a clock by the sign.