Author Topic: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road  (Read 186 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

AoP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« on: October 21, 2024, 04:36:41 pm »
Captured driving through a 'Term Timed School road close' thing that I had no idea existed until now :D

PCN -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P94cs7ey2llbpjfcSyI6SI9nHsqDb5KP/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jKKIbeQo0j0rLWF0on65PKpvY7EDoyYO/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sQ8GxwDUmjmtIwTW_RtD05uTg3g0jGv7/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_AFUYe-Lx-zpo6kwW7NTXc3KtE0-QDwp/view?usp=sharing

This is the only appreciable sign I passed before turning left from Nutbrook Street going South onto Adys Road (The arrow is pointing North, whereas the school is located to the South of this junction).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zIdCsoUuVcZkH4VAOl9PZwPoTAHHTIFN/view?usp=sharing
Unsure what direction this sign is supposed to convey to drivers: to turn right , or presence to a School Street being in the direction of the arrow (Had a quick look at the signs manual but cannot find a reference to it)?

Ergo: If a driver enters Adys Road, as I did via Nutbrook Street, or enters Adys Road at the North end, they will only become aware of the road closure when presented with the 'No Vehicles' sign(s) at the Adys Road junction with Amott Road; at which point no escape route exists - So what are their options?

Location -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/bXpkDtueGuZYKG4s7
« Last Edit: October 21, 2024, 04:44:03 pm by AoP »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Incandescent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3359
  • Karma: +77/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Crewe
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2024, 06:03:35 pm »
As you drive south down on Adys Road there is this sign, which is not a traffic sign, and how many people would have any idea what it implied.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LrEezbTxeTyYUK3H9
then, as you say, the next signs are the actual restriction, with no easy U-turn. What they should have installed, is a traffic sign giving the restriction ahead and the possibility of turning left at the next junction.
Here, before Nutbrook St is reached: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EEsyfh5VURHVSsQx9

AoP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2024, 06:12:03 pm »
@Incandescent
I couldn't agree more; It has been poorly instigated and easily remedied: Can't fathom a honorable reason against that...!

Quote
online status page states amount will increase to £130 on 5/11/24 - pay £65 now
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A7I3idssMXMkJzO68RbvqKjrVX4M1_rG/view?usp=sharing

Can anyone clarify what dates I should be mindful of?
Date of contravention 4/10/24; Date of PCN 11/10/24.
"28 days beginning with date of the notice" Leads me to believe 28 days from 11/10 is the 8/11: Is that correct, or is 'served' still a thing working off the 4/10?

Telephoned to request an appointment to view the video at the stipulated venue as per instructions, and slightly mockingly I might add, told to search Google and use the links therein to have access to all Pictures/Video held... :)
[Video has too many young persons that I can not obscure, so will not be made public].
Photo as first captured and available 'turnpoint'...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vpPzwr1JRYHTn1dqIYoMvsjuXmt0upJ-/view?usp=sharing

AoP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2024, 02:55:24 pm »
I did consider adding a 'TMO' not set correctly aspect but trying not to dilute into too many 'throw it at the wall and see what sticks" arguments - Plus the TMO has my brain spinning!
Considered an argument re (PW) Permits holders: Parked within restriction outside of operational hours, yet allowed to drive out without contravention exists, yet no signs showing exit boundary are present.   
'The gazette' misquotes the TMO with a minor point allowing 'carers'..

As a respond is required soon:
Quote
Dear Peeps

For reasons I address below; I cannot accept liability for the Penalty Charge Notice because:

The contravention did not occur.

It is accepted that I have entered a restricted area of carriageway on Adys Road~junction Amott Road, after turning South from Nutbrook Street.

Upon revisiting the location and viewing camera footage, it is clear that the signs conveying the restriction are not readily visible to any motorists traveling South on Adys Road, at any reasonable distance, and with clarity of meaning.
The left sign is obscured by trees foliage and a telegraph pole approaching the restriction and would only become clear & legible once arriving shortly in advance of such sign. My camera footage demonstrates the signs do not allow a clear vision of sight from inside a car, or to be seen at all in a conveniently timely manner. In my view, the driver would not have sufficient time to see and react safely to the restriction before passing the sign, by which time it is too late, and that would be if the sign would have been noticed in the first instance.

The absence of any advance warning signs on approaching this time restricted road ensures the motorist will be unaware that they are entering, when in operation, a dead-end road with no easy means of escape.
The restriction is operational during the school term (08:30-09:15 & 03:45-04:15), the dates of which are determined by the staff of the school. As the motorist is unaware of these dates it may be assumed that the sign conveys a full time restriction, which is disingenuous and factually incorrect.
 
The Southwark CCTV footage is helpful inasmuch that it shows my vehicle on the approach on Adys Road and clearly demonstrates the impossibility faced by the motorist when confronted with the restriction.
There exists an inadequate amount of carriageway available in which the motorist could attempt to turn their vehicle to facilitate abeyance.

Without any advanced warning, or indeed an escape route available to the motorist once beyond the junction of Adys Road & Nutbrook Street, I struggle to understand what options were conceived accessible to; or appropriate of, the motorist once confronted by the sign(s).

*) Resident parking permit bays extend the entire length, from the junction of Nutbrook Street, without interruption along both kerb sides of Adys Road, to the dropped kerb followed by entry to the restricted area. CPZ Permit area (PW) operates Mon-Fri, 9am-11am.

*) Any motor-vehicle deemed of a size that could wait on the carriageway other than in a permit bay; yet before the sign, would also be liable to further contravention due to the presence of both ‘dropped kerb(s)’, and Double Yellow Lines.

*) Retracing the drivers direction of travel to negate any contravention would therefore necessitate reversing North along Adys Road to beyond the junction of Nutbrook Street; A distance of approx 65m, in such a manner not to cause obstruction to other road uses: mindful to the width of road, which can only accommodate the passage of vehicles, in one direction, at one time.



I do not accept the assertion whereby an enforcement authority would willfully place any motorist in possible infringement of The Road Vehicle (con & use) Regulations 1986, as the default behaviour -

[106. No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle backwards on a road further than may be requisite for the safety or reasonable convenience of the occupants of the vehicle or other traffic, unless it is a road roller or is engaged in the construction, maintenance or repair of the road. ]

Although I do accept that the following is not mandatory, I point out that based on the Traffic Signs Manual, the signs are recommended to be visible from 60 meters and should face the direction of traffic. By placing the sign behind obstruction, the sign would inevitably fail to be visible from 60 meters.
The photo and video evidence clearly demonstrate this in terms of anticipated visibility being foreshortened.

Whilst it is incumbent upon a motorist to consult sign(s) and comply with advertised restrictions, it is incumbent upon an enforcement authority to ensure the sign(s) implementing the terms of a Traffic Management Order is adequate to communicate the nature of the restriction to motorists, and adapting the signs to the environment where it is going to be in force, and I do not believe that has been demonstrated here.

The aim of the School Streets Programme is a worthy concept: yet poorly enacted, dilutes the intended concept of road safety and air quality zones: As demonstrated when motorists consequently become entrapped within Ady’s Road due to the absence of any prior warnings adequately highlighting the restriction.
 
The enforcement authority seem to be mindful of the need to forewarn motorists by way of the **** of “blue rectangular signs with the legend ‘School street [option]’” on all approaches. The signs do not conform to any proscribed within the signs manual and convey no meaningful information: Indeed the sigh erected in advance of Nutbrook Street junction with Adys road shows the arrow pointing North, whereas the School is located to the South!

In conclusion you should cancel the PCN before I put on my angry pants!

AoP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2024, 01:25:07 pm »
Letter of rejection has arrived:

Page1 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hcgoRuvkb2V5JgWZI5eOPpH-AYmnAPvE/view?usp=sharing
Page2 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/15i_vntvof2Ao5VI4fS37o_l5m8-4zsH2/view?usp=sharing

Oddly, they have elected to include a blurred picture of a sign which I take to be their representation of an advanced warning sign, that I presume to be, on the North entrance to Adys Road (dated circa August '23).
Unknown signage - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WWzDJIbGsdF-9Y2sdEASwFMUsQE2O6y2/view?usp=sharing
Which I believe was superseded by this sign at the same location - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yRfTVTG0GI6s6-ihTAN1gfipVyTV3cEg/view?usp=sharing

I have also uploaded a video of the route taken, albeit a few weeks later (Time-Stamp incorrect as card was corrupted, hence belated video).
Video 31/10/24 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TOvp44TYJJkelmmGYbf4ZyAn-qlGm4zd/view?usp=sharing

Would appreciate any views on whether there is any viability in continuing to contest due to the; 'Absence of any advance warning' leading the motorist into a cul-de-sac: 'Restriction sign(s) 'as not being adequately visible' or 'No means of escape' once confronted by the restriction.



Incandescent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3359
  • Karma: +77/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Crewe
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2024, 01:49:07 pm »
Your argument is essentially down to inadequacy of signage.  This is subjective, so if you take them to London Tribunals, that is what an adjudicator will decide on. Yes, it is a trap with no meaningful advance signage, but the adjudicator could say that the signs were straight in front of you so why did you drive past them ?

Basically, it comes down to whether you are prepared to risk the additional £65 you would have to pay if you lost.

AoP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2024, 03:19:37 pm »
Your argument is essentially down to inadequacy of signage.  This is subjective, so if you take them to London Tribunals, that is what an adjudicator will decide on. Yes, it is a trap with no meaningful advance signage, but the adjudicator could say that the signs were straight in front of you so why did you drive past them ?

Basically, it comes down to whether you are prepared to risk the additional £65 you would have to pay if you lost.

Thank you Incandescent for your input. Pretty much tallies with what was within the rejection letter referencing the restriction signs conforming to TSRGD 2016: yet weirdly, also enclosing a redundant picture of a sign which clearly doesn't.
It also fails to address the preceding 'School Street' sign displayed on Nutbrook Street being incorrectly sign-posted with misleading information as to the direction to the school.
 
I would be interested to know at which point in my video the signs first reveal their intention with any clarity to other observers, whilst also being curious if the absence of any advance warnings could be contestable?


Quote
...the adjudicator could say that the signs were straight in front of you so why did you drive past them ?
I'm guessing that responding with either: "I thought the school was closed because the area wasn't awash with children", or , "The sign I passed on Nutbrook Street said the school was in the other direction" won't win the day! :)

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
  • Karma: +26/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2024, 08:31:28 pm »
@AoP PCN is fatally flawed re issue of a charge certificate. I will PM you.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P94cs7ey2llbpjfcSyI6SI9nHsqDb5KP/view?usp=sharing

2nd sentence under the picture.  BTW, Hi guys at Southwark if you are watching.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 08:39:05 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
  • Karma: +26/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Code 52 m - Adys Road Junction Amott Road
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2024, 10:35:44 am »
Game on shortly.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
Agree Agree x 1 View List