Author Topic: Lewisham 53J, Pedestrian zone restriction, Bellingham Road Junction with Longhill Road  (Read 171 times)

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CityChic

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Hi all,

Despite my best efforts and much to my surprise I received a Charge Certificate at the end of August (28/08/2024) for contravention code 53J failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone.  In this instance a school street at 3:13pm on 16/07/2024.

I had a hospital appointment and used the same route to go to and from my appointment.  I have used this road many times over the years and had no idea it was now a school street, which makes me think the restrictions are a recent change, possibly this summer.  While not an A road, it's a pretty significant B road which I had no idea could be a school street.  Avoiding it sends you on a detour down small residential side streets.  It's also very wide and uphill so the signage just didn't register.

I can already see that some are getting caught out by this camera with a couple of identical cases found on this forum.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/lewisham-code-53j-unknowingly-entered-pedestrian-zone-bellingham-road-junction-w/

and

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/re-contravention-53j-hazelbank-road/

I did not receive the initial PCN, just the Charge Certificate, just like the first case linked above.

On the 2nd link above Lewisham cancelled the PCN due to a "Systems error".

I waited for the Order for Recovery and got it signed at Bromley County Court stating I hadn't received the PCN.

They've now re-issued the PCN.  At the current time £65 is not an insignificant amount for me to just let go of without at least reaching out for some help to possibly get it cancelled. Help!

I've linked the images in the order received.

Charge Certificate


Order for Recovery (including copy of PCN)






PCN


Location
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xrCnzASe6Xu9rpJ86

Location


Journey

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Hippocrates

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I will draft tomorrow what to say.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

CityChic

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Thank you, any help is greatly appreciated.

Hippocrates

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Please screenshot this:

Penalty Charge Notice details
Ticket ReferenceZY07090164
Your PCN is at discount stage. PCN process information
Vehicle Registration NumberYN09PFD
ColourBLUE
MakeBMW
Contravention53j - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (camera enforcement)
LocationBellingham Road junction with Longhill Road
First seen atTue, 16 Jul 2024 15:13
Issued atTue, 16 Jul 2024 15:13
Served byPost
The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £130.00 on Wed, 20 Nov 2024. Please pay £65.00 now.

Dear Lewisham

I make these formal representations:

1. The video footage is of little evidential value since it is impossible to read the signage allegedly passed.

2. I make a collateral challenge as a moving traffic PCN cannot possible act as a notice to owner.

3. I make a further collateral challenge because the attached screenshot does not state the statutory times in which to pay.

In light of the above

Please cancel
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 07:59:07 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

CityChic

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Thank you! I was just about to submit after choosing 'The contravention did not occur' but then on the next page they've presented something I've not seen before:

Please provide more information.
Select a reason from the list below and provide details in the textbox. Please upload any photos or documents that you have to support your case
At the time I am supposed to have been in contravention, I was loading and unloading
The restriction that I am supposed to have ignored was not signed
At the time I am supposed to have been in contravention, the restriction did not apply
At the time I am supposed to have been in contravention, I was elsewhere
I was instructed by a police officer to do this
Officer shoulder number
You must select a reason off the list above


I'm forced to choose from the above.

The full set of options for making resprentations are:

The contravention did not occur
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time the contravention occurred
The vehicle had been taken without the keepers consent (i.e. it was stolen)
We are a hire firm and will provide details of the hirer
The PCN exceeded the amount applicable
The PCN has been paid
I wish to make representations about this PCN for other reasons


I'm stumped!

Hippocrates

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Please keep that screenshot. Put the text into a pdf and choose the contravention did not occur. Upload the pdf.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

CityChic

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I really don't mean to be obtuse but I'm stuck on what to select here. I can't submit without choosing an option. Or should I post my representation?



Hippocrates

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Website: Please screenshot everything.

Whilst there are no specific legal grounds which you believe make this notice invalid, nevertheless you believe that it was either unfair or unreasonable to issue the notice and would like the council to cancel it. You will need to provide very good supporting evidence for this. Some possible reasons that this might be considered are given below, this is not an exhaustive list and you must provide supporting evidence of your assertion. Suggestions for evidence are given in brackets after each reason

I had broken down (provide a garage bill, or recovery invoice)

I was (or had a passenger) taken ill, so I stopped quickly and was taken to hospital (eg admission record)
Loading and unloading (eg job sheet, delivery note)

I wish to challenge my PCN for another reason Tick this and upload the draft as a file.

Please provide a detailed explanation of why you believe the notice should be cancelled in support of any reason you have indicated above and attach as much supporting evidence as you can

You must provide a detailed description of the circumstances

Click 'Browse' or drag-and-drop files to upload up to 6 items of relevant supporting evidence. The selected files must be JPG, JPEG, PNG or PDF. To remove a file, click 'Remove', or click on the bin icon next to the thumbnail. Files must be smaller than 2MB.
Drag & drop files here …
Select files...

**

The file:

Dear Lewisham

I make these formal representations:

1. The video footage is of little evidential value since it is impossible to read the signage allegedly passed.

2. I make a collateral challenge as a moving traffic PCN cannot possible act as a notice to owner.

3. I make a further collateral challenge because the attached screenshot does not state the statutory times in which to pay.

In light of the above

Please cancel
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 08:53:56 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

CityChic

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Thank you. I finally managed to get it submitted.  I will update with the response.

CityChic

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So, I've received a Notice of Rejection.  They haven't addressed any of the issues stated.  They have given me another 14 days to pay the reduced rate.  I'm really not fond of the London Tribunals so wondering if this is at all winnable? I really don't have £130 to burn right now.

I saw a 53J in Lewisham was recently won (congratulations Hippocrates!) because of poor signage and a confusing road layout. But I'm not sure this one fits that mold. In addition to the other points made in the representation, the only thing I can note regarding the signage is that the one warning sign prior to the restriction is on the right hand side of the road. As the road is wide it's not obvious to look to the right for signage.  The sign is intended for those approaching the restriction so I'm not sure why it's not on the left. 

Bellingham Road is also a main B-road so to stop dead in your tracks on a 'main' road and divert does not come naturally. One side street takes you back on yourself and the other down a no through road. 

This one seems like a money maker for the council but not sure if I stand a chance.  I've also noticed the other threads on this location have gone quiet.

Representation:

"Dear Lewisham

I make these formal representations:

1. The video footage is of little evidential value since it is impossible to read the signage allegedly passed.

2. I make a collateral challenge as a moving traffic PCN cannot possible act as a notice to owner.

3. I make a further collateral challenge because the attached screenshot does not state the statutory times in which to pay.

In light of the above

Please cancel"

Notice of Rejection



Incandescent

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Essentially, you are on the hook for £65. If you take them to London Tribunals, this doubles to £130, the notorious "double-or-quits" gamble.  However, Hippocrates has a very good record of wins at LT. For me, it all comes down to what the Earl of Montrose wrote in the 18th century

"He either fears his fate too much
 Or his deserts are small
 Who fears to put it to the touch
 To win, or lose it all"


Hippocrates

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This is for the birds:

Penalty Charge Notice details
Ticket ReferenceZY07090164
Your PCN is at full rate stage. PCN process information
Vehicle Registration NumberYN09PFD
ColourBLUE
MakeBMW
Contravention53j - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (camera enforcement)
LocationBellingham Road junction with Longhill Road
First seen atTue, 16 Jul 2024 15:13
Issued atTue, 16 Jul 2024 15:13
Served byPost
The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Sun, 8 Dec 2024. Please pay £65.00 now.
You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Mon, 18 Nov 2024. You cannot make representations twice

****

I say Tribunal time. Please I will  email you.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2024, 12:04:51 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

CityChic

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There is some hope after all!

I have taken a screen shot. 

Why would the charge increase to £195 after 21 days?  Surely it should be 28 days if the NoR is dated 18 Nov?

I will be in touch with Hippocrates.  Here we go again!

Hippocrates

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There is some hope after all!

I have taken a screen shot. 

Why would the charge increase to £195 after 21 days?  Surely it should be 28 days if the NoR is dated 18 Nov?

I will be in touch with Hippocrates.  Here we go again!

Why not?  Tis fun - for me. You will be okay.  Please e mail me as I am snowed under at present - not quite literally.

You've nailed it.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Hippocrates

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Essentially, you are on the hook for £65. If you take them to London Tribunals, this doubles to £130, the notorious "double-or-quits" gamble.  However, Hippocrates has a very good record of wins at LT. For me, it all comes down to what the Earl of Montrose wrote in the 18th century

"He either fears his fate too much
 Or his deserts are small
 Who fears to put it to the touch
 To win, or lose it all"

I just say this:  μολὼν λαβέ. "If you want my armour, come and take it". About to file the appeal.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 07:43:16 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε