Author Topic: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH  (Read 871 times)

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Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #15 on: »
@george74 well there are several issues here but in a case like this, I think it's important to remember regulation 7(8) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022:

(8) If an adjudicator—
(a) does not allow an appeal, but
(b) is satisfied that there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the enforcement notice should be cancelled,
the adjudicator may recommend to the enforcement authority that it cancel the enforcement notice.

Even if the adjudicator cannot find any legal ground to allow the appeal, I still think virtually all adjudicators would make a recommendation that the penalty be cancelled. In one third of cases the council refuses the recommendation, in one third of cases it accepts it, and in the other third it does not respond, and if there is no response after 35 days then they are deemed to have accepted the adjudicator's recommendation.

Therefore at worst you have a 66% chance of getting the penalty cancelled, and we might also find some statutory ground that the adjudicator accepts, including in particular failure to consider which some adjudicators still accept notwithstanding the Halton judgment, which strictly speaking does not apply to parking cases.

On that ground, my personal recommendation would be to carry on.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #16 on: »
Thank you, I plan to appeal this. I am not familiar with the next steps, anything I should be aware of?

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #17 on: »
The instructions for appealing are on the notice of rejection, but I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like to be represented.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #18 on: »
I received the evidence pack from the council. I noticed that while they have included my online reps - they do not include the attachments sent in with the reps i.e. in my formal challenge, I simply wrote "see attached" and attached my challenge in a pdf along with diagnosis letters and appointment letters - but those attachments have not been included, so my formal challenge is also not included.

Can it be dismissed on these grounds?

Side note, I have had many tickets now but never gone to tribunal myself. I am slightly excited to see what happens even if I lose.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #19 on: »
The permit is under my wife's account.

Which would suggest that she is the RK.


To buy a resident permit in Barking in Dagenham you must:

live in the borough
have a permit online account
have your vehicle registered in the borough
provide proof of residence and proof of ownership of the vehicle the permit is for (see the documents you will need under Step 1 - Create an Account)



Who is the registered keeper and in whose name were the reps and the appeal made?

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #20 on: »
The permit is under my wife's account.

Which would suggest that she is the RK.


To buy a resident permit in Barking in Dagenham you must:

live in the borough
have a permit online account
have your vehicle registered in the borough
provide proof of residence and proof of ownership of the vehicle the permit is for (see the documents you will need under Step 1 - Create an Account)



Who is the registered keeper and in whose name were the reps and the appeal made?

I am not sure I understand the relevance. The car is a motability car for my wife. The letters were addressed to myself.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #21 on: »
The NTO from the council was addressed to you and you are the registered keeper?

The relevance is that the driver has not standing in these matters, only the registered keeper. That the permit was in your wife's name(or account as you've expressed it) combined with the council's criteria for holding a permit give reasonable grounds to check who's who.

If you are not the RK then you should not be able to act in your own name.


Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #22 on: »
I still don't see the relevance to my question.

It is a motability car, 'hired' by my wife. We do not own the car, so is Motability (the company) the RK? Should they be handling it?

I don't believe we need to be the RK to get permits. We can be insured and that's sufficient. For my previous car that I owned, the permit for that car was still under my wife's name.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #23 on: »
Quote
We do not own the car, so is Motability (the company) the RK?

Whose name & address is on the V5C?

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #24 on: »
OP, this is a legitimate and essential procedural issue and is wholly relevant.

Motobility are not the registered keepers of their vehicles, the keepers are the persons with whom they have their contract for the supply of the vehicle. If your wife is able to conduct her affairs, then this would be her.

In which case the NTO would have been addressed to her and only she can appeal to the adjudicator. She may authorise someone else in writing - fairly commonplace- but this authority must exist.

We just don't want to see her getting to adjudication, in the guise of you, only to be told you cannot represent her for want of proper authority.

The registered keeper is the person whose name is registered with the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency in Section 5 of the vehicle's log book or V5C. In the case of Motability Scheme cars, this is the customer.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #25 on: »
 Ok I get it now.

My wife would be the RK.

For the informal reps, we challenged in my wife's name - so the first rejection was addressed to her.

The NTO however was addressed to me. I have had private parking invoices that come addressed in my name, not my wife's - I am not sure why exactly.

For the formal reps, we challenged in my name - so the rejection was addressed to me.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #26 on: »
Have you physically checked the V5C?

For an informal challenge, the Council address the correspondent. To post the NtO, the Council obtain the name and address from the DVLA.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #27 on: »
The v5c is held by motability by default. I can request it and may be able to access it through my account but no access due to system upgrades or something - it'll have to wait until Monday.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #28 on: »
I have a case report file in the evidence pack which is a report produced from DVLA which gives details of the car and history - my name is listed.

Re: LBBD, code 12 parked in resident's bay, Halbutt Street RM9 5AH
« Reply #29 on: »
I received the evidence pack from the council. I noticed that while they have included my online reps - they do not include the attachments sent in with the reps i.e. in my formal challenge, I simply wrote "see attached" and attached my challenge in a pdf along with diagnosis letters and appointment letters - but those attachments have not been included, so my formal challenge is also not included.

Can it be dismissed on these grounds?
Yes, failure to provide a true copy of the representations should be an instant win. Look at the cases on rows 697 to 724 here, also see Rent 2 Buy Your Car London Ltd v London Borough of Hounslow (2190507965, 27 December 2019), Gurdish Kapur v Bristol City Council (BS44, 13 November 2000) and Benjamin Weedon v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham (2230197958, 18 May 2023).

The lead authority on the subject is Vanessa Price v Nottingham City Council (NG00044-2201, 7 March 2022), that dealt with the copy of the PCN having to be a true copy but the same principle applies to the representations.

You don't need to provide copies of London Tribunals cases, but any cases from the Traffic Penalty Tribunal you will have to upload to the tribunal portal.

If the point is argued properly, you basically can't lose.

When's the hearing?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order