Author Topic: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"  (Read 1783 times)

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LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
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Hi All,

I wonder if I can appeal/challenge a PCN for Havering.
I have to pay by the 27th of Junuary in order to be within the reduced charge period.

Today I parked my car at Marketplace in Romford, as on these pics:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/cunhe20ax8dtmk88hd38i/20250114_190105.jpg?rlkey=r13esig8f29t5zyu59g9es66t&st=q0smlon7&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8774797s2gdj89x01mhqa/20250114_190322.jpg?rlkey=if1xe43taq2jsyj281hdycwa2&st=rk6rkepi&dl=0

At the time I parked my car, other cars were parked behind mine in a similar manner, but most of them were already gone when I was taking the pics.

As you can see, there are no clear lines that would mark a clear distinction between the parking space and the "footpath" there, especially when it's dark and wet like today (my phone camera brightens it a lot).
A whole empty square and I get a notice for parking one wheel 10 cm over a different kind of cobblestone?

The exact location is: https://maps.app.goo.gl/R9iv2JBwcF9Jai2r5
My car was parked exactly where that blue VW is visible on the StreetView pic.

The scan of the PCN is here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/q33qia9zk9i7r1xgcvvce/PCN.jpg?rlkey=wbddxa884p5v9c2l38dg2yfex&st=vkkej2ie&dl=0

Do you think it is reasonable to appeal, considering Havering's policy of loosing the 14-day discount when you challenge the PCN?
@cp8759
« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 09:42:54 pm by Mike_D »

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Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #1 on: »
Isn't Market Place an off-street car park? In which case a code 62 is a nonsense.

As for the alleged contravention it looks a trivial wheel a bit on the flat tarmac.

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #2 on: »
I suppose it is an off-street parking...

I found a StreetView pic of the conditions of use: https://maps.app.goo.gl/imR62ESdVEqxUSVVA
It states that a PCN may be issued when "parked beyond the bay markings".
Bay markings - white/yellow lines - are clearly visible on the other side of the square, but the part where I parked has none - just these cobblestone patterns, which are hardly visible in dark and wet conditions... Can they even be recognized as bay markings?

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #3 on: »
As we all know, Havering is a venal and rapacious council, but this PCN really does take the biscuit !  It would be well worth getting this into the local press to shame them.

Whilst they say they are not re-offering the discount if you submit representations, the discount period remains valid, so if you submit reps and have not had a reply before it expires you are entitled to pay the discounted amount. A case on this very subject was won at Nottingham when am appellant tried to pay the discount within the allowed period, having already appealed. The adjudicator was quite clear that the discount period was a lawful period for paying a reduced sum regardless of whether representations had previously been submitted. As I recall (it was some years ago !), the adjudicator also commented that it was a procedural impropriety to say that submitting reps forfeited the discount.

So submit reps on the basis of triviality of contravention. If they respond within the discount period, you are entitled to the discount. If they refuse it, take them to London Tribunals where you will win, and in all likelihood would be able to claim costs. If they have not responded, pay the discount before the period expires. Again, if they refuse it, they are behaving unlawfully.

Here are the relevant regulations: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2/made

« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 11:03:58 pm by Incandescent »

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #4 on: »
So this looks like an off-street car park to me and they've given you an on-street contravention.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 11:22:55 pm by stamfordman »

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #5 on: »
Guys, thanks for your support.

I have drafted my rationale for challenging the PCN, but as I am totally new to this (and English is not my first language), I would appreciate if you could add something and/or re-word it in any way necessary. Are there any legal key phrases that would be useful here?

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received a PCN for an alleged contravention of parking “with one or more wheels on a footpath”, code 62.
I parked my car on the Market Place Car Park at 18:20 on 14/01/2025 on western part of Market Place, adjacent to North Street.
According to the Conditions of Use of the car park, a vehicle should not be parked “beyond the bay markings”. However, this area of the square has no clearly marked parking spaces that a vehicle should be parked at. Such bay markings are clearly visible on the other part of the square, where white and yellow lines leave no doubt about it, but the area near North Street has no such lines. There are just some decorative patterns of cobblestone and stone slabs, which are hardly visible after dark and in wet conditions. I have parked there for the first time ever and it didn’t even cross my mind that these might be considered as any “bay markings”.I parked my car near several other cars parking in a similar manner, not posing any danger or being an obstacle for pedestrians or other vehicles. 
My alleged contravention is probably having one wheel parked on 10 cm of just another type of cobblestone, which can hardly be considered as a separate footpath at all (the actual footpath, where people do walk is alongside the shops and North Street, very far away from any parked cars).
Please find the attached pictures of the position of my car.
Given the above triviality of the “contravention”, I would like to file for the cancellation of the PCN.
Best regards,



Besides the triviality, should I challenge code 62 as well?
I don't know the actual status of that car park - it is pretty ambiguous.
Certainly, there is no curb you could park right by, but on the other hand, you can't exactly say that it is "constructed away from the public roads or streets so that the parking does not affect the pedestrians and flow of traffic directly" - it is marked as a pedestrian and cycle zone in certain hours on certain days: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VQRawHVTnrzN2nrH6
« Last Edit: January 15, 2025, 04:10:24 pm by Mike_D »

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #6 on: »
I would send this. But wait for others.

-----------

The alleged on-street contravention of footway parking cannot have occurred as my car was parked in Market Place, one of your off-street car parks.

As the PCN was issued in error I look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #7 on: »
Thanks!

Should I add these two sentences somewhere to that long scribble of mine or just send these two alone?

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #8 on: »
This is a basic point that the contravention cannot be given where you parked so anything else is redundant

But I may be wrong so wait for others to look. There's no rush.

Here's a recent amendmnet to the order which clearly shows it's an off-street car park in my view.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4681461
« Last Edit: January 15, 2025, 05:10:32 pm by stamfordman »

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #9 on: »
indeed.
they call it a "car park" is it not impossible for a "car park" to be on street?
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #10 on: »
Guys, I decided to add the key phrases from @stamfordman (thanks!) into my rationale after all.
I added the link to The Gazette just in case they tried to dispute the "off-streetness" of the car park.


Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received a PCN for an alleged contravention of parking “with one or more wheels on a footpath”, code 62 (an on-street contravention).
The alleged on-street contravention of footway parking cannot have occurred as my car was parked in Market Place, one of your off-street car parks: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4681461 .
I parked my car there at 18:20 on 14/01/2025 on western part of Market Place, adjacent to North Street.
Additionally, according to the Conditions of Use of the car park, a vehicle should not be parked “beyond the bay markings”. However, this area of the square has no clearly marked parking spaces that a vehicle should be parked at. Such bay markings are clearly visible on the other part of Market Place, where white and yellow lines leave no doubt about it, but the area near North Street has no such lines. There are just some decorative patterns of cobblestone and stone slabs, which are hardly visible after dark and in wet conditions. I have parked there for the first time ever and it didn’t even cross my mind that anything there might be considered as “bay markings”. I just parked my car near several other cars parking in a similar manner, not posing any danger or being an obstacle for pedestrians or other vehicles.
My alleged “contravention”, according to the CEO, is probably having one wheel parked on 10 cm of just another type of cobblestone, which can hardly be considered as a separate footpath at all (the actual footpath, where people do walk, is alongside the shops and North Street, very far away from any parked cars). No parking beyond any visible bay markings occurred as well.
Please find the attached pictures of the position of my car.

Given the:
-   On-street contravention was used on an off-street parking
-   No visible bay markings present in the area where and when I parked my car
-   Triviality of the alleged “contravention”
I look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.

Best regards,


Does it look alright?

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #11 on: »
What you're doing is mutually exclusive - saying the contravention cannot have occurred but it did occur and was trivial.

In an off-street car park there is no such thing as footway parking. As you've deduced a correct contravention could be:

86 Not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space

Anyway no one else has chipped in apart from Mick who rightly says some car park areas can be on-street but I really don't think Market Place is one.

There is no rush so wait for other views.


Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #12 on: »
personally I would go with the wrong contravention code argument and see what they come back with, and leave out the de minimus argument for later.
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #13 on: »
I recall now that Market Place is barred to motorised vehicles as a pedestrian and cycle zone on Weds, Fri, Sat and Sun 6am-7pm apart from permit holders.

As a car park it's only open for certain operational times on other days and not overnight on some days. 

Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
« Reply #14 on: »
What you're doing is mutually exclusive - saying the contravention cannot have occurred but it did occur and was trivial.

In an off-street car park there is no such thing as footway parking. As you've deduced a correct contravention could be:

86 Not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space

Anyway no one else has chipped in apart from Mick who rightly says some car park areas can be on-street but I really don't think Market Place is one.

There is no rush so wait for other views.

Indeed, fair point!

Though I used the word "alleged" and put contravention in caption marks, maybe irony and sarcasm is not the right way here...

Apart from The Gazette, I have found another clue that this really is an off-street parking – RingGo website also classifies it as such too:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6vtza359m4mfmlwa79bun/RingGo.JPG?rlkey=niwbgae6rnuldgamp4n6am56y&st=6et1r2vo&dl=0