Author Topic: LB Greenwich Stopping in Box Junction - Short Time to respond  (Read 155 times)

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Hi all,

So my partner received a Charge Certificate on 20th June 2025, the Charge Certificate was dated 26th May 2025. It referred to a PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction, however she had never received this PCN. Date of Contravention was 30/3/2025 and location was the Blackwall Lane Junction with Salutation Road.  She immediately emailed LB Greenwich and said,

"On 20th June 2025 I received a Charge Certificate dated 26th May 2025.  This related to a PCN Number GR23368931.

I have never received this Penalty Charge Notice.  I request that you cancel this Charge Certificate and the PCN. Otherwise please explain what the process is as I never received the Penalty Charge Notice and so have not had the opportunity to challenge or appeal it."

She heard nothing back and so sent another email on 1st August 2025 saying -
"Dear Sir or Madam,

I have not received any correspondence from you since this email.
Please can you confirm that you have cancelled this PCN or tell me what process there is for appeal or challenge.

Many thanks,"

She received a response on 4th August 2025 saying -

"PCN GR23368931 is on hold, and you will receive correspondence in writing in due course.

Kind regards

Parking Services
Communities, Environment and Central
C The Woolwich Centre,  Floor 3, 35 Wellington Street, London SE18 6HQ"

She has today received a Notice of Rejection of Representation dated 27th March 2026, which is shown above.  Sadly I don't have the original charge certificate and she never received the original PCN.

Is the Notice of Rejection out of time though? IF they are taking her initial email as a Representation, which they seem to be doing, then don't they have a set amount of time to respond?

If you can advise I'd be grateful as otherwise she'll pay the discounted charge of £65 which she has to pay by this Friday 10th April (I think, if I've calculated this correctly.)

Many thanks in advance.


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Re: LB Greenwich Stopping in Box Junction - Short Time to respond
« Reply #1 on: »
Good shout of no contravention as space ahead to clear the box. The car ahead also looks to have stopped short too.


Re: LB Greenwich Stopping in Box Junction - Short Time to respond
« Reply #2 on: »
Agree with Stamfordman.  If you look at the two cars which pass through the box before yours, at the point they completely clear the box the front is behind the white "blob" on the left of the carriageway. At the end of the video, the rear of the car in front of you is in front of the same white blob.

It's not completely scientific, but suggests on balance of probabilities your vehicle could have moved forward to completely clear the box junction by creeping forward until it was almost touching the car in front.  If that's the case, then no contravention was committed as the offence is defined as causing your vehicle to enter the box junction so that it HAS TO stop within the box junction. If the circumstances were such that you had the option to leave the box (i.e. you didn't have to stop where you did), then no contravention was committed.







Re: LB Greenwich Stopping in Box Junction - Short Time to respond
« Reply #3 on: »
Hi folks,

How about this for the wording to the London Tribunals?  I *think* I need to submit this today as today will be 28 days from service (assuming that service is still 2 days).


I should like to appeal Penalty Charge GR23368931 issued by Royal Borough of Greenwich to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators on the following grounds:

1) The contravention did not occur
2) There has been a procedural impropriety by the issuing authority


1) This contravention did not occur as there was enough space for the vehicle to have completely cleared the box junction on the other side from where the vehicle entered it. The driver was slightly confused by the directions the sat nav was giving which is why they stopped in the box, even though they could have cleared it.  This can be shown by looking at the video evidence as supplied by the issuing authority.  On the left of the picture, by the kerb, you can see a white blob.  If we look at the previous two cars to go through the junction then you can see that when the front of the cars are level with this blob then the rear of the car has cleared the junction.  It is clear that the vehicle that this PCN has been issued against could have pulled forward to be level with the white blob and as such would have cleared the junction.

2) No original PCN was received by the owner/keeper of the vehicle. The first that they knew about this was when they received a Charge Certificate on 20th June 2025, the Charge Certificate was dated 26th May 2025.  She immediately emailed LB Greenwich and said,

"On 20th June 2025 I received a Charge Certificate dated 26th May 2025.  This related to a PCN Number GR23368931.

I have never received this Penalty Charge Notice.  I request that you cancel this Charge Certificate and the PCN. Otherwise please explain what the process is as I never received the Penalty Charge Notice and so have not had the opportunity to challenge or appeal it."

She heard nothing back and so sent another email on 1st August 2025 saying -
"Dear Sir or Madam,

I have not received any correspondence from you since this email.
Please can you confirm that you have cancelled this PCN or tell me what process there is for appeal or challenge.

Many thanks,"

She received a response on 4th August 2025 saying -

"PCN GR23368931 is on hold, and you will receive correspondence in writing in due course.

Kind regards

Parking Services
Communities, Environment and Central
C The Woolwich Centre,  Floor 3, 35 Wellington Street, London SE18 6HQ"

The only other correspondence regarding this has been the Notice of Rejection dated 27th March 2026 which says "We refer to the representations made by you in connection with the issue of the above Penalty Charge Notice."

Firstly, I would argue that IF the issuing authority are taking the initial email as representation then to respond over 9 months later is a procedural impropriety.  Justice delayed is justice denied, there can be no good reason that it should take an issuing authority this long to reject any representation.

Secondly, I would like to suggest that the authority have acted improperly by not responding to the question posed by the email's author where they ask the authority to "..,explain what the process is as I never received the Penalty Charge Notice and so have not had the opportunity to challenge or appeal it."  Instead the authority decided to take the email itself as representation, without asking the owner/keeper to explain on what grounds they are making representation.  Surely, unless the authority know on what grounds someone is making representation they are not in a position to reject the representation?  Had the authority replied with the information to allow the recipient of the charge certificate to make representation then they would have been the reasons (as laid out above) that no contravention occurred and would have had to make a decision based on that information.



All your advice on this greatly appreciated. 



Re: LB Greenwich Stopping in Box Junction - Short Time to respond
« Reply #4 on: »
I think you've got until tomorrow - 2 business days after 27 March is 31 March, so deadline is 27 April.

You may wish to include the screenshots I made as I think they are quite persuasive.

Re: LB Greenwich Stopping in Box Junction - Short Time to respond
« Reply #5 on: »
Thanks I shall include the stills.  Apart from that, wording ok? Are there any previous cases I should be referring to in order to back my defence?

Slightly updated.  Usually, we suggest people initially appeal simply by stating that they rely on their formal representations (which can then be beefed up once the council's evidence pack is received).  In this case there are no formal representations so I think it's ok to go in on the basis of what you've drafted (subject to tweaks below) which capture what you want to get across.  You can always supplement later once we've seen the evidence from the council.

NB, I think you should specify the date that the council was emailed, you said "immediately" so I guess it's 20 June 2025? - for now I've put DATE so please update that before issuing.

It should be your wife that is submitting the appeal so I've changed it from third person to first person. You can attend the hearing instead of, or in addition to her but it should be her that the written appeal is from.

I've updated your second ground to mainly focus on the 9 month delay which, in normal circumstances, should be enough to win this if you remind the adjudicators they have themselves stated three months is the maximum it should reasonably take (but note under the relevant legislation for box junctions, there is no stated maximum to it's not an automatic win).

The council hasn't followed the normal process once the CC is issued.  They should normally tell you to wait until the next document is issued (the Order for Recovery) which sets out how to get the process reset back to the PCN, but they seem to have cancelled the CC out of process. This also means you didn't get a reissued PCN which prejudices you so I've included that too.

As mentioned earlier, I think it would help to include the stills I included in my previous posts which your first appeal point.  If you need me to send them to you directly let me know.

Do register for the appeal (online) before the deadline at the end of today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I should like to appeal Penalty Charge Notice GR23368931 issued by Royal Borough of Greenwich on the following grounds:

1) The contravention did not occur
2) The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case


1) A box junction contravention cannot occur if there is sufficient space beyond the box junction to enable the vehicle fully to clear the box junction markings, irrespective of whether the vehicle stops within the box junction. Having studied the video footage provided by RB Greenwich I can see there was a significant space on the far side which I believe was large enough for my vehicle to have moved into in order fully to clear the box junction. This can be indicated by examining the video evidence as supplied by the issuing authority.  On the left of the picture, by the kerb, you can see a white 'blob'.  By considering the previous two cars to go through the junction then you can see that when the rear of each car is level with the far end of the box junction (i.e. it has just cleared the box junction), then the front of each car has not yet reached the 'blob'. At the point my vehicle becomes stationary, the rear of the stationary vehicle in front my vehicle is beyond the 'blob' indicating that there was sufficient space for my vehicle to manoeuvre further forward to clear the box junction completely.

2) No original PCN was received. The first that I knew about this was when I received a Charge Certificate on 20th June 2025, the Charge Certificate was dated 26th May 2025.  I immediately emailed RB Greenwich (on DATE) and said,

"On 20th June 2025 I received a Charge Certificate dated 26th May 2025.  This related to a PCN Number GR23368931.

I have never received this Penalty Charge Notice.  I request that you cancel this Charge Certificate and the PCN. Otherwise please explain what the process is as I never received the Penalty Charge Notice and so have not had the opportunity to challenge or appeal it."

I heard nothing back and so sent another email on 1st August 2025 saying -
"Dear Sir or Madam,

I have not received any correspondence from you since this email.
Please can you confirm that you have cancelled this PCN or tell me what process there is for appeal or challenge.

Many thanks,"

I received a response from RB Greenwich on 4th August 2025 saying -

"PCN GR23368931 is on hold, and you will receive correspondence in writing in due course.

Kind regards

Parking Services
Communities, Environment and Central
C The Woolwich Centre,  Floor 3, 35 Wellington Street, London SE18 6HQ"

The only other correspondence regarding this has been the Notice of Rejection dated 27th March 2026 which says "We refer to the representations made by you in connection with the issue of the above Penalty Charge Notice."

Notwithstanding that my emails were not intended as formal representations, if the issuing authority are taking the initial email as my formal representations then to respond over 9 months later is procedurally improper and an unreasonable delay.  There can be no good reason that it should take an issuing authority this long to reject any representation and I note it significantly exceeds the 3 month period by which London Tribunals adjudicators have declared that a Enforcement Authority should normally respond to representations for moving traffic offences.

Where a Enforcement Authority believes that a moving traffic contravention has occurred, it may serve a Penalty Charge Notice on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle. This is...
London Tribunals · londontribunals.gov.uk


My email correspondence with RB Greenwich in June and August 2025 was not intended to constitute my formal representations (nor, I believe, could it reasonably have been interpreted as such). By not following the proper process of cancelling the Charge Certificate and reissuing the Penalty Charge Notice, I have been denied the possibility of properly submitting representations for consideration by RB Greenwich.

In such circumstances, the amount which can be legally demanded by the authority is zero.