3. Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #75 on: »
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 06:21:34 pm by taffer87 »
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #76 on: »
Edited

The evidence pack refers to a moving traffic contravention and Lewisham council!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 05:57:43 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #77 on: »
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #78 on: »
@H C Andersen

Any views are welcome as need to submit soon.

1. In addition to the point on whether the TWOC in NTO fetters to theft should be added? I haven't found any real past cases on this so am minded to not include.

2. Also want to check if I need to mention this in the rejection notice against the informal challenge as I think they shouldn't have said "automatically" but keen to get guidance from experts/experienced folk


"You have these choices:
- You can pay the discount charge of £65.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
- You can pay £130.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
- You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £130.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives."

3. Anything else you can think of based on evidence pack and my draft appeal doc
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #79 on: »
To the Adjudicator..

Sir,
I would draw your attention to pages 2 and 3 of the council's Case Summary, as follows:

Customer Reason for Representation

Item 3

Not owner ....not owner for purposes of TMA.

Authority Reason to Uphold (sic) Appeal
Please be advised......therefore the council had done(sic) a transfer of liability ..Evidence E

I would also refer you to Evidence C(council's log) which shows that on 15 Dec. representations were received from VWFS Finance challenging liability.

This letter can be seen in Evidence E and states that the vehicle is on lease to ******** and supplies my name and address. On the basis of this letter alone the council accepted the owner's representations, see their Notice of Acceptance dated 17 Jan. I would add that although VWFS wrote to the council again, their duplicated letters dated 21 Dec. refer, these add nothing to their representations as regards the nature of the hiring.

I submit that their letter dated 15 Dec. failed to meet the requirements of representations under regulation 5(4)(d) of the Appeals Regulations 2022 which require that the owner not only states the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was hired at the material time but also include the following documents:
A signed statement of liability acknowledging their liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any relevant road traffic contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement.

No such evidence was submitted by VWFS or by the council to justify their decision to accept the owner's representations and to issue a NTO to me.

As support to your appeal on these grounds.

Some thoughts.
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #80 on: »
@cp8759

it seems they have issued a charge certificate even though the hearing at tribunal is a week away. i haven’t received it in the post yet but this is what the council website says and when i go to payment it asks for £195 today

even if i don’t physically receive the charge certificate in the post - is this a PI on its own that they are now asking for £195 on their website?

At the same time I have also received a message from Tribunal that The LA Appeal officer will indeed be joining the hearing via telephone


« Last Edit: March 05, 2024, 08:05:48 am by taffer87 »
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #81 on: »
You certainly need to include this matter at the adjudication, as this is a procedural impropriety, and has won appeals in the past.
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #82 on: »
Upload that screenshot to the tribunal website, it shows that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, which is a statutory ground of appeal in its own right.

If you get a charge certificate in the post, service of that document is a procedural impropriety. If the council officer attends, ask him or her if the council concedes the appeal owing to the premature charge certificate.

If s/he refuses to concede you need to cross-examine the officer by asking them to read out the definition of a procedural impropriety at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/2 and then asking how premature service of a charge certificate while an appeal is outstanding is authorised or required by the regulations.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #83 on: »
Service of a CC when an appeal has been registered may be a PI.

But get your ducks in a row first to ensure that you can nail the matter with objective facts, which are:

Date that the tribunal issued their notification to you that your appeal had been registered (which acts as the same date on which the enforcement authority were notified);

The date the CC was issued.

OP, over to you. If the dates stack up, then IMO it's appeal point no. 1.

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #84 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on March 05, 2024, 07:17:17 pm
Service of a CC when an appeal has been registered may be a PI.

But get your ducks in a row first to ensure that you can nail the matter with objective facts, which are:

Date that the tribunal issued their notification to you that your appeal had been registered (which acts as the same date on which the enforcement authority were notified);

The date the CC was issued.

OP, over to you. If the dates stack up, then IMO it's appeal point no. 1.

I haven’t received a charge certificate yet but the council website says one has been issued and the council payment amount has gone up to £195 on 4 March 2024

appeal hearing is next week (wc 11 March 2024) and has not been changed since the tribunal set it on 9 February 2024

Appeal with tribunal filed on 31 January 2024 online

Notice of rejection date 29 Jan 2024
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #85 on: »
Pl answer the questions:

Date that the tribunal issued their notification to you that your appeal had been registered (which acts as the same date on which the enforcement authority were notified);

The date the CC was issued.

Not 'Appeal with tribunal filed on 31 January 2024 online', you must have received confirmation that it had been registered. And you can find out from the authority when the CC was issued.

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #86 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on March 05, 2024, 08:04:23 pm
Pl answer the questions:

Date that the tribunal issued their notification to you that your appeal had been registered (which acts as the same date on which the enforcement authority were notified);

The date the CC was issued.

Not 'Appeal with tribunal filed on 31 January 2024 online', you must have received confirmation that it had been registered. And you can find out from the authority when the CC was issued.

There is no email which says the appeal has been registered.

There is an email on 31 January 2024 saying appeal has been submitted and tribunal will consider and let you know if it has been accepted within 7 days.

the next communication I have is an email with an attachment on 8 February 2024 which says thanks for your appeal which was received on 31 January 2024 the hearing will take place on xx March 2024 (a date in wc 11 March 2024)

so the answer to when the appeal was registered is one of the two. probably 8 February 2024. i can see the authority was informed of the appeal on 8 February 2024 as per their log too

The charge certificate was issued on either 4 March or 5 March. It doesn’t matter really which of the two for this purpose. Will just wait to receive it. I am not going to contact the council and flag the error directly to them for now.

On 4 March (and prior to that), the council website said a charge certificate would be issued on 4 March and the amount will increase to £195 but it was accepting £130 as payment.

On 5 March the council's website changed the amount to £195 and now says the charge certificate will be registered at the court on 22 March 2024
« Last Edit: March 05, 2024, 08:50:24 pm by taffer87 »
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #87 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on March 05, 2024, 05:51:11 pm
Upload that screenshot to the tribunal website, it shows that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, which is a statutory ground of appeal in its own right.

If you get a charge certificate in the post, service of that document is a procedural impropriety. If the council officer attends, ask him or her if the council concedes the appeal owing to the premature charge certificate.

If s/he refuses to concede you need to cross-examine the officer by asking them to read out the definition of a procedural impropriety at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/2 and then asking how premature service of a charge certificate while an appeal is outstanding is authorised or required by the regulations.

Thank you
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #88 on: »
Quote from: taffer87 on March 05, 2024, 08:30:52 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on March 05, 2024, 08:04:23 pm
Pl answer the questions:

Date that the tribunal issued their notification to you that your appeal had been registered (which acts as the same date on which the enforcement authority were notified);

The date the CC was issued.

Not 'Appeal with tribunal filed on 31 January 2024 online', you must have received confirmation that it had been registered. And you can find out from the authority when the CC was issued.

There is no email which says the appeal has been registered.

There is an email on 31 January 2024 saying appeal has been submitted and tribunal will consider and let you know if it has been accepted within 7 days.

the next communication I have is an email with an attachment on 8 February 2024 which says thanks for your appeal which was received on 31 January 2024 the hearing will take place on xx March 2024 (a date in wc 11 March 2024)

so the answer to when the appeal was registered is one of the two. probably 8 February 2024. i can see the authority was informed of the appeal on 8 February 2024 as per their log too

The charge certificate was issued on either 4 March or 5 March. It doesn’t matter really which of the two for this purpose. Will just wait to receive it. I am not going to contact the council and flag the error directly to them for now.

On 4 March (and prior to that), the council website said a charge certificate would be issued on 4 March and the amount will increase to £195 but it was accepting £130 as payment.

On 5 March the council's website changed the amount to £195 and now says the charge certificate will be registered at the court on 22 March 2024

Received charge certificate in the post today dated 5 March 2024.

Very happy to receive the charge certificate  :D
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #89 on: »

so the answer to when the appeal was registered is one of the two. probably 8 February 2024. i can see the authority was informed of the appeal on 8 February 2024 as per their log too

Received charge certificate in the post today dated 5 March 2024.

There you have it.

The regs provide:
Further representations by the parties
4.—(1) Any party may deliver representations in relation to the matters referred to in regulation 5(2)(b), 8(5) or 11(3), as appropriate in the circumstances, to the proper officer at any time before the appeal is determined.
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