Author Topic: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle  (Read 202 times)

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silentbob

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Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« on: April 26, 2024, 01:53:29 pm »
Hi all,

Thanks in advance for reading and appreciate responses.

I parked my motorcycle in Shrubbery Road at 13:00. I know in Lambeth I need to park in motorcycle bays and had checked the pdf linked below where I can park. Viewing the PDF on my mobile, I understood that at the bottom of the page would be the end of the council, as the rest of the map is marked out. Thus south would then be Croydon Council where it is legal & free to park a motorcycle on the road sign posted the same.

https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking/parking-restrictions/where-you-can-park/motorbike-parking
https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/Lambeth_Broroughwide_Motorcycle_Bays.pdf

I have challenged the PCN stating that I followed the map and I understood that the end of the map meant the end of the council boundary. And that in neighbouring council (where I thought I then was) this parking would be legal and no grounds for a PCN. ( I also have diagnosed ADHD)

They have replied denying my, not commenting on the map being confusing and saying there is a sign explaining it is a residents/p&d parking place.

Is it worth me challenging this further as I followed the information available online? Feel a bit hard done by the situation as the map is incomplete and can confuse?

Many thanks in advance,
silientbob

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cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2024, 11:13:38 pm »
@silientbob you've given us nothing to work with, please read the guidance here and post all the documents so that we can give you proper advice.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

silentbob

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2024, 09:42:55 am »
Hi @cp8759. I haven't uploaded anything else as it holds no relevance. Ultimately, I have parked in a residential/pay & display bay and haven't paid for it.

The reason I had not was due to the information that I received from the councils website on where motorcycle parking's are available (Linked in OP).

My only available argument is that the map can easily be misunderstood as the bottom does not continue, meaning this could be misunderstood as this being the end of the council boundaries. Which is what I did.

https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/Lambeth_Broroughwide_Motorcycle_Bays.pdf

The street I parked in South, out of picture.

actual boundaries

https://lambethcouncil.maps.arcgis.com/apps/View/index.html?appid=52384ef5cff74b48a0d5be365a935d00

I hope this helps,
Thanks

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2024, 09:59:52 am »
Hi @cp8759. I haven't uploaded anything else as it holds no relevance.
How do you know it holds no relevance?

How do you know all the small print on the PCN is correct?

How do you know the traffic management order creates the contravention stated  on the PCN?

How do you know the photos discharge the council's burden of evidence?

With the best will in the world, you came here for advice so I suggest you let us actually give you legal advice based on the facts of the case, rather than deciding for yourself what has relevance.

Of the 600+ appeals I did last year, the vast majority were won on grounds that the appellants thought had no relevance.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Princeperch

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2024, 03:40:46 pm »
@silentbob you have privileged access here to someone who is probably the foremost expert on pcns in this country, and how to beat them. Whatever he tells you to do you would be well advised to do it, even if you dont agree or understand why!
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silentbob

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2024, 04:03:01 pm »
@Princeperch Yeah I realise thanks. Going to update now :)

silentbob

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2024, 04:27:20 pm »
Hi @cp8759

My apologies, that was short sited of me and I appreciate you coming back to me.

I have added the PCN, evidence pictures, my informal appeal and their reply to onedrive

I will update my OP to include this too. edit - modify is locked now so cannot.

Thank you for your time
« Last Edit: April 29, 2024, 04:29:36 pm by silentbob »

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2024, 08:25:40 pm »
Please can we see the back of the PCN?

I have checked the traffic order and also the red route designation order for this road and I can't see any obvious problems there, however the council appears to have quite plainly misunderstood your representation.

Nothing you mentioned in your informal representation amounts to a statutory ground of appeal, but you're entitled to have your representations considered by someone who actually understands what you are saying.

It also sounds like you might have some pretty compelling mitigation, though you probably don't want to post the supporting evidence on a public forum. I think it would be worth using evidence of your financial situation for the strategy of last resort, if that get a failure to consider there is then a procedural impropriety on the basis of which you could appeal to the tribunal.

Don't worry about the discount, as long as the notice to owner is challenged within 14 days of the date of issue the discount will almost certainly be reoffered.

Which leads to the most important question: is the bike registered to you, do you have the V5C, and is the address up to date?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

silentbob

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2024, 11:14:58 am »
Hi @cp8759


Thank you for your reply. I have updated the onedrive link to include the back of the PCN.

Yes, that is how I felt from their reply, they just ignored the issue I raised with the map on the councils website.

My V5C, addresses etc are all correct and up to date.

So from what I understand, I will not pay, wait the 28 days and once receive the Notice to Owner I will then challenge this within the 14 days (formal appeal)

I have read the post you have linked. Is it worth me trying to argue both points in the Formal challenge or try one strategy and stick with it?

At the end of this I want them to update their map to include the entire council as for someone not familiar with the area there is a good chance they could do the same thing as me. Don't include a map of the borough on where to park with part of the borough missing when it shows the outlines in other areas.

Thanks again and have a good day

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2024, 11:36:08 am »
So from what I understand, I will not pay, wait the 28 days and once receive the Notice to Owner I will then challenge this within the 14 days (formal appeal)
Yes, except it's a formal representation, not an appeal. It only becomes an appeal at the tribunal stage.

I have read the post you have linked. Is it worth me trying to argue both points in the Formal challenge or try one strategy and stick with it?
I suggest when you get the notice to owner post it up on here, together with a draft formal representation, and we'll review it for you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

silentbob

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2024, 05:53:51 pm »
Hi @cp8759

I hope all is well. I have been awaiting this Notice to Owner form my neighbour has just knocked and said she accidently took some of my post. Guess what was in there. GREAT. Thankfully there was 28 days to respond so there is still time, phew.

I have uploaded the pictures and my response to the one drive folder and have created a new editable link in case that is useful
I'd really appreciate any feedback.

Many thanks

silentbob

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2024, 09:44:34 am »
What I have written.

To whom it may concern,

I am making a formal challenge due to my informal challengeís raised points not being understood and taken into consideration.
Prior to my journey I had checked the map provided on the Lambeth Councils website https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking/parking-restrictions/where-you-can-park/motorbike-parking and using the provided map https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-06/Lambeth_Broroughwide_Motorcycle_Bays.pdf it was understood to me that the council line ends as per the map. You can clearly see to the top, left and right of the map where it is clear, so why does it not end at the bottom or include the whole council to avoid confusion, especially when viewing from a mobile phone. As someone with ADHD I find that this could easily confuse other people as the map is not clear and complete. Due to this I thought I was out of Lambeth council and would have been able to park here without payment.
(included a screenshot of the map on the document)

After following the information on the councilís website this is even more frustrating and feels unfair as I am not able to afford the fine, I am on Universal Credit which doesnít even cover my rent and am in debt to pay for food.
I am asking for this fine to cancelled as well as this map to be updated properly as can be easily misunderstood by anyone, especially someone with learning disabilities.

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2024, 10:18:51 pm »
@silentbob I think we need to come up with something better than that, as your representation could be batted away as raising only mitigating circumstances on which the council's decision is final.

I think the strategy described here is worth considering, as it would put you on far firmer footing, but please let me know if the proposed approach is clear.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

H C Andersen

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2024, 11:00:47 pm »
OP, I don't quite follow the series of events.

You posted:
I parked my motorcycle in Shrubbery Road at 13:00. I know in Lambeth I need to park in motorcycle bays and had checked the pdf linked below where I can park. Viewing the PDF on my mobile, I understood that at the bottom of the page would be the end of the council, as the rest of the map is marked out. Thus south would then be Croydon Council where it is legal & free to park a motorcycle on the road sign posted the same.

Which leads to what seems to me to be the obvious questions:
why didn't you just check whether Shrubbery was in Croydon rather than Lambeth?
why did you assume that 'south would be Croydon council' - given that this wasn't shown on your map- unless you already had detailed knowledge of the respective boroughs? 

As per others, IMO you won't succeed on the basis you've set out.

silentbob

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Re: Lambeth - PCN 12s - without permit/p&d - Motorcycle
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2024, 09:10:47 am »
Hi @cp8759

Thank you, I understand the approach, I don't know/understand how to execute it.

Appealing on strategy 1, should I keep the info in about the map issues and financial and then ask for a authority's discretionary power not to enforce, or just take it out and go straight from my financial side? I obviously want to do whatever is best for my case but I also want to shine a light at the information that they have provided.(I understand I can do this outside of this)

EDIT. Okay I have found a service, Linkly that does this, I can create a unique link that will track clicks. I will add this to my word doc.
On Strategy 2, how can I do this? I don't have access to Enterprise Office365 or dropbox etc. Do you have any experience with this? Haven't been able to find anything online and the only thing I can think of it putting the image on Imgur but this also will track me refreshing to check if they've looked as a view so I don't know how I could prove it.

Thank you
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 10:25:17 am by silentbob »