3. Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill  (Read 1285 times)

0 Members and 91 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #15 on: »
Appeal filed.
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #16 on: »
@cp8759 I have been searching for cases allowed when NORs have been issued when the appellant only made a request for the video evidence. There used to be many of these on pepipoo. Do we have any these days as I cannot find? Sorry, as I know you have a busy day.
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #17 on: »
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #18 on: »
@cp8759 Super.
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #19 on: »
When the authority post their evidence I'd like to see the underlying traffic order, I can't remember seeing one to date.
Logged
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #20 on: »
None provided as not necessary for this type of contravention.
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #21 on: »
Thanks.

So, what type of contravention is it?


(5)Subject to subsection (6) below, for the purposes of this section, a penalty charge is payable with respect to a motor vehicle by the owner of the vehicle if the person driving or propelling the vehicle—

(a)acts in contravention of a prescribed order; or

(b)fails to comply with an indication given by a scheduled section 36 traffic sign


Logged
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #22 on: »
see
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

pages 37-38

also
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs/regulatory-signs

and
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs/the-signing-system

This was the TDRGD 2002 list of Section 36 signs and markings
Quote
Application of section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to signs and disqualification for offences

10.—(1) Section 36 of the 1988 Act shall apply to each of the following signs—

(a)the signs shown in diagrams 601.1, 602, 606, 609, 610, 611.1, 615, 616, 626.2A, 629.2, 629.2A, 784.1, 953, 953.1, 7023, 7029 (except when varied to omit the legend “NO OVERTAKING”), 7031 and 7403;

(b)the road marking shown in diagram 1001.3;

(c)the road marking shown in diagram 1003;

(d)the road markings shown in diagrams 1013.1, 1013.3 and 1013.4 insofar as those markings convey the requirements specified in regulation 26;

(e)the road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 insofar as those markings convey the prohibition specified by regulation 29(1) and Part I of Schedule 19;

(f)the road markings shown in diagrams 1042, 1042.1, 1043, 1044 and 1045;

(g)the red light signal when displayed by the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 or by regulation 35;

(h)the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 as varied in accordance with regulation 34 when they are displaying one or more of the green arrow signals shown in diagrams 3001.2 or 3001.3 insofar as they convey any of the restrictions specified in regulation 36(1)(f) or (g);

(i)the light signal shown in diagram 3013.1;

(j)the intermittent red light signals when displayed by the sign shown in diagram 3014; and

(k)the light signals prescribed by regulation 37 and shown in diagrams 6031.1 and 6032.1 when indicating one of the prohibitions prescribed by regulation 38.

(2) The following signs are hereby specified for the purposes of column 5 of the entry in Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988(1) relating to offences under section 36 of the 1988 Act—

(a)the signs shown in diagrams 601.1, 616, 629.2, 629.2A and 784.1;

(b)the road marking shown in diagram 1001.3;

(c)the road markings shown in diagram 1013.1, 1013.3 or 1013.4 insofar as those markings convey the requirements specified in regulation 26;

(d)the red light signal when displayed by the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 or by regulation 35;

(e)the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 as varied in accordance with regulation 34 when they are displaying one or more of the green arrow signals shown in diagrams 3001.2 or 3001.3 insofar as they convey any of the restrictions specified in regulation 36(1)(f) or (g);

(f)the intermittent red light signals when displayed by the sign shown in diagram 3014; and

(g)the light signals prescribed by regulation 37 and shown in diagrams 6031.1 and 6032.1 when indicating one of the prohibitions prescribed by regulation 38.

In TSRGD 2016 the above contents were distirbuted amongs various sections:

Quote
(2002) 10 Application of section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to signs and disqualification for offences transferred to (2016) Schedules 2, 3, 7, 9, 13, 14 & 15

see also
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/introduction
« Last Edit: June 05, 2025, 10:45:25 am by John U.K. »
Logged
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #23 on: »
Yes, but what contravention is alleged by the council because there are 2 options:

(a)acts in contravention of a prescribed order; or

(b)fails to comply with an indication given by a scheduled section 36 traffic sign


We know what the sign on its own means, but on what basis was it placed? I ask because I've never seen any council evidence posted in these cases which clarifies this position.

From s36 RTA

2)A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either—

(a)the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or

(b)it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;
Logged
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on June 05, 2025, 12:19:18 pm
(b)it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;
This, the TSRGD expressly provide that section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 applies to that sign.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #25 on: »
Thanks.

Presumably they have not included this within any Order and therefore the only indicators available are those on the ground, namely a regulatory sign without the optional associated plate indicating distance and the information plate for traffic approaching from the opposite direction placed at the council's discretion which notifies motorists that after this point alone they are in 'a section of road where they have priority over traffic from the opposite direction'.

The authority then issue PCNs for contraventions that have not occurred in this 'section of road'. The council have determined the extent of this section of road, and therefore the restriction, and it does not lie with officers of the authority to act in contrary to this policy or anyone else to infer a different meaning, in effect to ascribe a right to motorists which they do not have in law.

IMO.
Logged
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #26 on: »
This matter has been argued before and it's won most of the time, see rows 836 to 842 here.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #27 on: »
In this thread it has been suggested that the OP was at fault because before they cleared the 'priority area' a car approaching from the opposite direction had to slow.

This highlights what to me is the key issue: where does the contravention occur?

IMO, it can only occur at the point that the motorist enters the 'priority area', not when they leave. The alternative would involve the motorist having to exercise judgement as to when any visible car approaching would reach the 'priority over approaching vehicles' sign!

Logged
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #28 on: »
To be tested very shortly.
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill
« Reply #29 on: »
 ;D Website issue.
Logged
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Pages: 1 [2] 3
« previous next »
  3. Lambeth, Code 37j failing to give way to oncoming vehicles, Salter's Hill