Author Topic: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route  (Read 212 times)

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Ken Masters

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Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« on: February 16, 2024, 06:47:22 pm »
Dear All,

Please see below PCN and evidence in the form of 3 photos:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19Xu7Y3tJEJYSNLMslaWLhe4c-CYTjHC5/view?usp=drive_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hc_vzBjTn8GW_W3aPip0y7l1wNZ-IB-q/view?usp=drive_link

Have been researching recent decisions and note template red route defences seem to have gone with approved camera and postal.
I'm unsure on the merits of the evidence provided by the council camera operator - please let me know your thoughts on this and possible defences?

Will go back and look into the signage.

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024, 07:10:36 pm by Ken Masters »

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Incandescent

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2024, 01:10:50 am »
I've had a quick look on GSV, and can't see any parking bays at all outside 24-36 Streatham High Road. Please post a  GSV link by telling us exactly where you stopped.

H C Andersen

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2024, 02:58:06 pm »
The Red Route prohibition is part-time. There aren't parking places as such, there is a red-lined area exempting vehicles for the purposes of loading and displaying a BB for periods less than the prohibited hours(which are obscured by a lamp column.) 

I'm unsure on the merits of the evidence provided by the council camera operator..

Photos aren't required, CCTV is the primary evidence.

Given that the car was there, was it there during prohibited hours, was it engaged in loading or did it display a BB?

If not, then on the face of it the contravention occurred.

Ken Masters

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2024, 12:40:32 pm »
Hi both,

Thank you for your replies.

There isn't any CCTV/video evidence on TFL, only the three photos.

I'm getting this from GSV:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oMTugnNbMj4FUNHDA
This is from May 2023 which leads me to believe the bay was put in recently.

The sign is facing oncoming traffic so that is a no go.

I'm putting together a defence, please let me know your thoughts if any.

TIA
« Last Edit: March 25, 2024, 10:33:23 pm by cp8759 »

Hippocrates

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2024, 01:07:26 pm »
« Last Edit: March 31, 2024, 09:29:22 pm by cp8759 »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

Ken Masters

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2024, 06:08:09 pm »
My appeal:

Dear Sirs,

Ref: PCN XXX

I note x3 photographs only are being relied on as evidence of alleged contravention on the TFL website. I challenge PCN XXX on the following grounds:

1. I hold  you to strict proof with respect to camera approval as per the case of Anish Raj Shrestha Vs TFL (case ref: 2230256263). The camera used must be cerified as an “approved device” by the Secretary of State before a PCN can be issued. Only when the device is certified by the Secretary of State can it then be used for the civil enforcement of road traffic contraventions.

I herein make a freedom of information request under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) for information regarding the camera used to gather the evidence being relied upon for the aforementioned PCN. This should include make and model of camera in the form of written description plus photographs of the camera which pictorially illustrate the make and model. Further, I request the Secretary of State approval certificate that the camera used has been certified for the use of civil enforcement of road traffice conventions. Pleae provide this information in writing to my postal address below within 28 days of the date of this challenge.

2. On the day in question, the car was in the bay for a very short time as can been seen in the time stamps of the photographs being relied upon as evidence of the alleged contravention.

We were unaware of the parking restriction until getting out of the car and finding a  sign a short while later. Upon noting the restriction we departed.

The above scenario parallels that of Mr Simon Wright - v - NEPP - Essex County Council (Case number:ID00131-1812) in that a brief but reasonable time is allowed to read signs that impose stopping restrictions.

3. Please note attached blue badge.

I therefore request you to cancel the aforementioned PCN.

Ken Masters

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2024, 06:24:16 pm »
The notice of rejection states amongst the usual bumpf:

"The vehicle was observed as stationary between 16:22 and 16:24."
The photo evidence shows 16:22 32s to 16:23 55s which is around 1 minute and 23 seconds.

Question 1 how long is reasonable to get out and have a look at the relevant signs under the relevant case law?

Question 2 the NoR states the Freedom of Information info will sent under separate cover. Also, "CCTV cameras are not individually subject to Type Approval but under the terms of the Traffic Management Act 2004, our CCTV camera enforcement system is fully certified on behalf of the Secretray of State."

What do you wizards think?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2024, 06:26:27 pm by Ken Masters »

Ken Masters

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2024, 07:20:51 pm »
bump

H C Andersen

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2024, 08:24:43 pm »
Why have you not asked for the video?

You imply that you were only stationary for long enough to read the signs and then leave, but is this what would be shown on the CCTV?

The photos are NOT their evidence, nor what an adjudicator would see, it's the video. So if you've been re-offered the discount, why would you risk this by appealing if the CCTV shows you left the parking place?

Ken Masters

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2024, 12:25:01 pm »
Mr Anderson, firstly thank you for your reply.

This forum is a wealth of information - thank you to all of you who take the time to help. I am learning all the time.

Should the video of the alleged contravention not be made available at notice to registered keeper stage and on the TFL website?
If a video is not on the TFL web site can one be relied on at later stage where it has not been presented to the defendant?
I would like to see it if it exists. It will bear out my appeal. The car was running (headlights are on in all the pics) and my partner got out of the car to look for the sign)

Secondly in response to FOI request TFL confirm that the camera in use is a "Siqura HD16AWDR/P External analogue PTZ dome camera."
The accompanying VCA certificate meanwhile certifies a "Siqura HD62."
It looks like the certified camera whilst being of the same manufacturer is of a different model.

Is there any scope of appeal here?


H C Andersen

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2024, 01:13:01 pm »

Should the video of the alleged contravention not be made available at notice to registered keeper stage and on the TFL website?
If a video is not on the TFL web site can one be relied on at later stage where it has not been presented to the defendant?


Not mandatory.
Yes, it IS their evidence ('on the basis of a record produced by an approved device..') as the PCN tells you. It also tells you how to request a copy and that progress would be put on hold pending it being served.

If, as you say, the CCTV shows you stopped solely for the purpose of checking the signage then there's no contravention.

Ken Masters

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2024, 02:57:47 pm »
Thank you, have requested copy of video footage.

Any opinions on the disparity between camera make/model?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2024, 02:59:23 pm by Ken Masters »

H C Andersen

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2024, 03:46:30 pm »
Date of issue of PCN: 12 Feb.
Date served: 14 Feb. (OP, this is a legal presumption);
Last day of 28-day period for making reps: 12 March.

So, you just made it. But how did the conversation go? Have you confirmed in writing?


Ken Masters

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2024, 05:17:37 pm »
Have confirmed in writing.
Status on hold: SUS26

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth Streatham high road 46 Stopped on a red route
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2024, 10:33:48 pm »
@Ken Masters can we have the PCN number please.

The Lambeth red route traffic orders are here.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 12:14:16 am by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order