Author Topic: L.B of Havering - 53J - entering a pedestrian zone - South View Dr RM14 / Acacia Dr RM14  (Read 209 times)

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LR1979

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Good evening,

I have received a PCN for entering a pedestrian zone on my way home from work.








I did not take my usual route home because of an accident, so I used back streets to get home.

I’m not familiar with the route I took home, I got a bit lost and wasn’t aware I’d entered this zone until I got the PCN notice yesterday.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/5ADNd4MQbqxxEspw8

I visited this spot tonight because id not intentionally risk a fine and to take some pictures because  1) where I entered into the zone it was a crossroads where I would have been checking for vehicles left, right and oncoming and 2) I found warning notices in three other roads prior to the restriction warning about the zone and there was not one where I would have entered from.

Is it worth appealing or should i accept I’m unintentionally in the wrong and pay the reduced charge?

Thank you.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 10:34:42 pm by LR1979 »

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stamfordman

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If you were going straight across probably little chance on the contravention but others know of faults with Havering website I think. But be aware that havering hasn't been reoffering discounts.

If you'd been turning left some appeals have been won at the tribunal for this type of restriction.




LR1979

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Thanks for the response @stamfordman. I'm sure i'am going straight across by the position of the car  :-\

Incandescent

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If this were just a simple Flying Motorbike restriction, then I'd agree. Normally advance signs are placed on the streets where a motorist has to make a turn to enter the restricted street, but not where the approach is head-on..

HOwever, here I think it is a bit of a trap, frankly. Here is what the OP would have seen as he came up to the cross roads: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/uPnAa1trsGCmpZnp8

I don't think it is possible to read the text boards below the main sign from that distance, so in my view the council have failed in their LATOR duty to provide signs that convey the restriction adequately. In order to read the text the motorist would have to committ to start to enter the street. So what can he do if he reads the times which means he cannot enter;  stop in the middle of the crossroads ? Unfortunately, GSV is out-of-date for the side streets, so it's not possible to show the advance signs. Maybe the OP can post them ?

Hippocrates

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@LR1979: the PCN is seriously flawed as is their website. This will be a technical appeal and I will draft something for you later. We have already won a case on this wording issue recently and I have a couple more in the pipeline.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

LR1979

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@incandescent and @Hippocrates, thank you for your responses.

Hopefully I can avoid this charge with your support.

Do you need anymore information from me?

Thankyou, Lisa.

Hippocrates

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I have a case tomorrow on the same issue so I will report back. Relax. "The PCN is somewhat schizoid and this problem is further exacerbated by the amalgamation of various grounds pertaining to a plethora of legislations as published on their website."

My speech tomorrow.

And I will be wearing the shirt.

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference   2240327073
Appellant   Kuttykrishnan Ramswaroop
Authority   London Borough of Havering
VRM   LB60LLU
PCN Details
PCN   HG61195227
Contravention date   29 May 2024
Contravention time   18:26:00
Contravention location   Main Road / Upper Brentwood Road
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date   
Decision Date   03 Sep 2024
Adjudicator   Henry Michael Greenslade
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons   
At this scheduled personal hearing the Appellant was represented by Mr Morgan, who attended in person but the Enforcement Authority did not attend and were not represented.

Under Paragraph 11(1) in Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 a box junction marking conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box marking due to the presence of a stationary vehicle.

The Penalty Charge Notice was issued under Section 4(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 on the basis of information provided by a camera or other device. There appears to be no dispute that the vehicle was at this location, as shown in the closed-circuit television (cctv) images produced by the Enforcement Authority.

The Appellant’s case is that the Penalty Charge Notice is not compliant as regards the ground for making original representations to the Enforcement Authority.

Paragraph 1(4) in Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that the grounds are:

(a) that the recipient (i) never was the owner of the vehicle in question; (ii) had ceased to be its owner before the date on which the penalty charge was alleged to have become payable; or (iii) became its owner after that date;

(b) that there was no (i) contravention of a prescribed order; or (ii) failure to comply with an indication; or (iii) contravention of the lorry ban order, under subsection (5) or (7) of the said section 4 as the case may be;

(c) that at the time the alleged contravention or failure took place the person who was in control of the vehicle was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner;

(d) that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and (i) the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a vehicle hiring agreement; and (ii) the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice issued in respect of the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement; or

(e) that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

The grounds for representations stated on the Penalty Charge Notice are:

* The alleged contravention did not occur

* You

– were never the owner of the vehicle in question

– had cease to be the owner owner before the date on which the alleged contravention occurred, or

– became its owner after that date;

* The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the the owner’s consent

* That you are a vehicle-hire firm and –

– the vehicle in question was on hire under a vehicle hiring agreement at the time of the contravention, and

– the person hiring the vehicle had signed a statement of liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served during the period of the hiring agreement;

* The penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

* The traffic order (except where it is an order made under Schedule 9 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984) which is alleged to have been contravened is invalid.

The wording on the Penalty Charge Notice does not comply with the strict requirements of Paragraph 11(1).

Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2024, 08:19:07 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

LR1979

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Hi @Hippocrates,

How did you get on with the 53j case the other day?

LR

Hippocrates

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It was adjourned because of a new practice direction to file skeleton argument 14days before the hearing. Now on 20th. But I have one before on 12th. All this has caused me much havoc.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

LR1979

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My reduced charge is due today :(

Shall I bite the bullet and pay it, or do you think I should challenge it?


Hippocrates

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My reduced charge is due today :(

Shall I bite the bullet and pay it, or do you think I should challenge it?

NO! PM me.DO NOT PAY. PM SENT.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 08:16:47 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

LR1979

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Sent you a PM.

I haven’t paid it.

LR

Hippocrates

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1. The PCN is unenforceable because it contains a ground referring to the traffic order being invalid which does not belong in this legislation.

2. Furthermore, there appear on the PCN two lists of grounds, which clearly do not agree with each other and, indeed, another wrong ground concerning the TWOC: The vehicle had been permitted to rest in the place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner. – Clearly, this and the aforementioned ground belong to parking legislation.

3. The council is aware of this case, a review of which they have not sought: 2240327073.

In light of the collateral challenges as itemised above, please cancel the PCN.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

LR1979

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Thanks LR
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 09:02:25 pm by LR1979 »

Hippocrates

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Yes re most of your post except the code: but do not spell it out to them. PLEASE use the draft verbatim.

I will report back re the 12th hearing.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 08:40:45 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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