Author Topic: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus stop Location – Clarence Street  (Read 466 times)

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Hi Good Evening & A Happy New Year To All!

Royal Borough of Kingston very kindly sent me a Christmas present when I dropped my son and his girlfriend off the other night to their Christmas party - a £140 PCN!.

At approximately 22.22pm I pulled in to a bus stop on Clarence street (which I have done in the past to the exact same bus stop) to let them out, was there for 15 seconds and then returned home.
It was poorly lit there despite what the night vision camera shows and I had no chance of seeing any of the signage.
And I was not expecting to receive a PCN.

Is this PCN something I can and should challenge?

I have uploaded, all of the forms, pictures, and street view link below, and would appreciate some help and advice.

PCN
https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/rGCtv52_xl.jpg
https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/uB58d9t_xl.jpg
https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/OFKxrH1_xl.jpg
https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/tvJcBKF_xl.jpg
https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/17BXykV_xl.jpg

Streetview (although this does appear to be out of date, as no scaffolding is there anymore)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1SVFiaweSmPPwmrx5






« Last Edit: December 31, 2025, 09:36:32 pm by Pauldon3576 »

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Totally bang to rights if the no stopping sign is there as it was.

Our member Hippo may have something on other matters.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/54usS26sbaw7E7m7A


Ok, not good. No chance I would have seen that pulling over!
There's me thinking I shouldn't stop on the double yellows to let them out!

Should I await some news from Hippo?


You're fine on yellow lines as alighting/boarding is an exemption and it's a no waiting not a no stopping restriction. But watch out for red routes.

The broad yellow line in the bus stop puts you on notice it's a no stopping clearway but it must also have a no stopping plate. Almost all London bus stops are so marked and many major ones have CCTV.

Hippo is around so wait for him to check paperwork etc.

We had another case here but presumably it was paid.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-47j-stopped-on-restricted-bus-stop/


I will take a look tomorrow to see if the No Stopping sign is correct. Nice trip to the Kings Tun indeed.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Many Thanks Hippo & A Happy New Year To You & All.

The broad yellow line which should have alerted me is one I was not aware of but will be now!
I'm still not happy that I would have never seen the sign in the poor lighting there at night.

And my son said he was going to take the train but I offered (as any Dad would!) to take him!

Oh dear, and excuse my poor spell checking, just seen it! Should know better as I was born there too!! End the year on a high....!!

Wait until tomorrow. I  will  do you a draft.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

I checked the sign today and is missing the red XX on the roundel. So, try this:

Signage is inadequate and does not comply with the law.

· The upright sign at the location does not include the prescribed "no stopping" roundel symbol, and its background was white instead of yellow. This contravenes the requirements as clearly specified in Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD):

· Part 1, Prescription of signs, Regulation 3 (1) states: “A traffic sign for conveying a warning, information, requirement, restriction or prohibition of a description specified in these Regulations is of a prescribed size, colour and type if it complies with all applicable requirements provided for in these Regulations.”

· Schedule 3, Part 2, Item 4, Diagram 642 prescribes the signage content for Bus Stop Clearways, specifically the inclusion of the no stopping roundel.

· Schedule 4, Part 2, paragraph 2 states: "The sign must have a yellow background and black border as shown in blank diagram 1 in Part 1." TSRGD provides that a traffic sign is only of a prescribed type if it meets all applicable requirements, including size, colour and symbol. The yellow background is an essential legal component of a sign that includes a symbol from Schedule 4, Part 3, such as the “no stopping” roundel. White background signs are prescribed for a completely different set of uses under Part 4 (e.g., parking or loading bays) and convey a different regulatory meaning. Furthermore, under TSRGD Schedule 7, Part 6, paragraph 1(2)(b) an upright sign for a bus stop clearway must include the "stopping prohibited" symbol.

· Any deviation from the prescribed sign design — including the omission of a symbol or substitution of colour — must be expressly authorised by the Secretary of State under Section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. No such authorisation has been provided. These are not minor defects. The law does not permit informal substitutions or approximations for prescribed signs. A sign that does not conform to TSRGD cannot lawfully convey a restriction. Accordingly, no contravention occurred.

Length of the bay

The bus stop clearway is of considerable length, yet contains only one upright sign. This fails to meet visibility and placement requirements under the Traffic Signs Manual (TSM) and TSRGD.

• TSM Chapter 1, paragraph 5.4.4 advises: “Regulatory signs must be placed as near as practicable to the start of a restriction.”

• TSM Chapter 3, paragraph 13.24.9 specifically addresses longer bus bays: “Where the bus stop marking has been extended to accommodate two or more buses, it might be preferable to mount the sign close to the beginning of the bay. In these circumstances an additional sign, mounted parallel to the kerb, might be required near the centre of the bay.”

Height and orientation and visibility

The sign is not clearly visible even from 5–10 metres away, and its placement fails to convey a clear restriction as required by statutory guidance.

• TSM Chapter 3, 13.24.9: “Upright signs that indicate a prohibition of stopping normally face oncoming traffic as it is an offence to stop to read the sign.” This sign is angled away from the line of approach and cannot be read safely or clearly by a driver. It therefore fails to comply with TSM guidance and does not serve its intended purpose.

• TSM Chapter 3, section 1.8.2, Table 1-1 – Minimum clear visibility distances: “For roads with speeds up to 20 mph, the minimum clear visibility distance in a 20mph zone is 45 metres. This sign is not visible from even 5 to 10 metres away, let alone 45 metres. This directly contradicts the visibility standards set out in TSM and severely limits the sign’s ability to provide timely notice of a restriction to drivers. This failure renders the restriction inadequately conveyed and, consequently, unenforceable in law.

Cases in support

• Matthew Mathai (2240426053): Appeal allowed due to length of bus stop clearway, only one sign and signage not clearly visible. The importance of adequately visible signage in bus stop clearway was emphasised in Sean Hurley v London Borough of Camden (2210017951, 16 November 2020) to which I have had regard. … The single sign is placed towards the very end of the clearway, from the perspective of a motorist approaching it. There is a very considerable distance from the start of the clearway to the sign itself. The sign would barely be visible, if at all, from there. The guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual has not been heeded. Based on the evidence in this case and with that guidance in mind, I do not find, on the balance of probabilities, that the signage was adequate.

• Sean Hurley (2210017951): Appeal allowed due to inadequate signage ‘not in the correct position and visible’. Its visibility is even more important where the prohibition is simply on “stopping” and where the motorist will therefore have very little time to see it, let alone look for it”

• Rafiuddin Syed (2240376545): First, the Appellant's representative has drawn my attention to the decision of Adjudicator Walsh, case (2240426053) I find that this case is applicable to the one I am deciding now, the Adjudicator recorded as follows when citing from Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual at 13.2.9, which states that: The sign should normally be located near the centre of the bay or mounted on the post that supports the bus stop sign to diagram 970, 973.2 or 973.3 (S11-2-76 and 77). Where the bus stop marking has been extended to accommodate two or more buses, it might be preferable to mount the sign close to the beginning of the bay. In these circumstances an additional sign, mounted parallel to the kerb, might be required near the centre of the bay." “this bus stop clearway is notably long at 150ft in length. In those circumstances, the Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3, para 13.24.9), suggests a sign in the middle of the clearway or two signs, to ensure that the sign can readily be seen by a motorist. In this case, I find on the balance of probabilities that the single sign is placed towards the very end of the clearway, from the perspective of a motorist approaching it. There is a very considerable distance from the start of the clearway to the sign itself. The sign would barely be visible, if at all, from there. The guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual has not been heeded. Based on the evidence in this case and with that guidance in mind, I do not find, on the balance of probabilities, that the signage was adequate. In those circumstances the contravention is not proved. Thirdly, the bus stop in this case is 138ft and the sign plate is at the far end.

Considering the above , please cancel the PCN forthwith.

Finally, I put you to strict proof that the camera used had a valid certificate.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2026, 04:17:47 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Hi Hippocrates,

You are indeed a gentleman. I was wondering about visibility!

I am about to make representation online but I need enter the grounds for representation. I cannot get past this screen without selecting something. Would I be correct in choosing "The contravention did not occur" ? Or would you advise otherwise?
Please see link below.

https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/a2PcsWv_xl.jpg

Best Regards

P

I  need to check the page as those are the five grounds for moving traffic contraventions.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Thanks again Hippocrates, I shall await your reply! Also, should I add ALL the information to my representation that you supplied above?

Regards

P

Those grounds are wrong incomplete rather, so screenshot them for future use. I have taken a screenshot myself.

*******

Choose did not occur and put all the info. into a pdf. You can add the lack of visibility too which is nit the same as their camera evidence.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2026, 02:29:17 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

PCN served under the TMA 2004, so statutory grounds 'procedural impropriety' is missing.

Should i add this too into my representation? Or save it for later...?