Author Topic: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St  (Read 146 times)

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Prezbo

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Hi I hope I have provided all the info as per the instructions.

Got this through the other day.  Looks like we were only in the box for a few seconds as there is a bus in front and that would have moved (saying this as we always use this road and there is always congestion). 
This junction does sometimes have a slowdown of traffic but usually moved off quite quickly.  Obviously cannot recall if we were stationary for any longer.

Letter details:
PCN: Qt08796942
Date of Notice: 01/02/24
Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited (camera enforcement)
The Vehicle was seen in: A307 Clarence St (Junction with Wheatfield Way D4)


Images here:

Google Maps: https://maps.app.goo.gl/a1jskWos54fZZfLa8

Thank you for any replies/advice.

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Incandescent

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2024, 06:31:02 pm »
Need to see the PCN, and also the video.

Hippocrates

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2024, 07:19:44 pm »
Cases have been won on incorrect location. As stated, whole PCN please as there may well be a flaw.

ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2140200836
Appellant Kevin Rudd
Authority Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames
VRM LD07YNO
PCN Details
PCN KT5656096A
Contravention date 12 Feb 2014
Contravention time 08:37:00
Contravention location Wheatfield Way
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date
Decision Date 19 Jun 2014
Adjudicator Anthony Chan
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons The Appellant attended the hearing in person accompanied by his representative Mr Herbert. The Authority was not represented.



Mr Herbert submitted that the PCN specified the location of the contravention as a box junction at the junction of Wheatfield Way and Clarence Street but there is no such junction. This point was not raised at the Notice of Appeal stage. They were made in correspondence received by the Tribunal on 16 June. Mr Herbert said that the identical bundle had been sent to the Authority at the same time.



If the Authority had received these submissions on or about 16 June, and I find on a balance of probabilities that it had, it should be in a position to deal with it by the hearing today, or seek an adjournment if necessary. The point is not a new one. It was argued in Newman v Kingston upon Thames (PATAS case no. 2140111099) where the Adjudicator upheld the appeal. The Appellant in that case had provided a detailed set of evidence including photographs to show that there was no box junction at the specific location and the Authority had not responded in that appeal either.



I am not bound by another Adjudicator's decision but I find it persuasive, especially when the Authority had been given the opportunity to deal with it in that appeal as well as the instant appeal but chose not to respond on either occasion.



I do not find that the contravention as stated in the PCN occurred. The appeal is allowed.

************************

ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference   2140111099
Appellant   Pamela Mary Newman
Authority   Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames
VRM   R26UKX
PCN Details
PCN   KT56445575
Contravention date   11 Dec 2013
Contravention time   09:43:00
Contravention location   Wheatfield Way j/w Clarence Street
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date   
Decision Date   03 Apr 2014
Adjudicator   Sean Stanton-Dunne
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons   Mrs Newman has appeared in person.



This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited at the stated location of Wheatfield Way: Junction with Clarence Street.



Mrs Newman has produced a very detailed evidence pack which she tells me was served by hand to the Council on 26 March 2014 and which was provided to PATAS on the same date. This evidence is not responded to by the Council.



Mrs Newman's evidence pack includes street maps and google images which satisfy me that the box junction in which Mrs Newman's car was observed was the box junction in Clarence Street which lies beyond the end of Wheatfield Way. There is a separate box junction in Wheatfield Way but that is clearly not the box in which the car was observed. I am satisfied from the evidence produced that the PCN was issued for the wrong location and that there is in fact no box at the stated location.



I also find that the CCTV footage incorrectly cites the location of the alleged contravention as 21 Clarence Street. Mrs Newman has conducted a site inspection and she tells me that the Ladbrokes shop and the Skindeep store which can be seen next to the box are respectively 143 and 145 Clarence Street.



The Council says that the box in which Mrs Newman's car was observed, which I shall call the Clarence Street box, complies with Diagram 1044.1 of The Traffic Signs (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations and General Directions 2011 for the placing of a box on an area of carriageway at a gyratory system or roundabout. The Clarence Street box is clearly not on a roundabout and I have seen no evidence that it is on an area of carriageway at a gyratory system. As far as I can see, the box is therefore not compliant with the requirements for a box junction as shown in the Diagrams in Schedule 6 to The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.



I find for these three reasons that the alleged contravention did not occur.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 08:23:20 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

Prezbo

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2024, 07:47:36 pm »
[/img]

video:https://imgur.com/TjkapOI
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 09:10:34 pm by Prezbo »

Prezbo

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2024, 07:48:25 pm »
Cant seem to upload the image and video.  Image is showing in preview but not when i post.  Can i attach them here?

Hippocrates

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2024, 08:16:34 pm »
I am not tech savvy but I need to see the whole of of it.  The grounds page in particular.

Please:  write out verbatim what the taken without consent ground states.

And whether it states choose one ground.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 08:27:02 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

Prezbo

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2024, 09:08:39 pm »
Hi

I added it next to image in the post above.

Thanks

Hippocrates

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2024, 01:22:48 pm »
Dear Sirs

Ref:  PCN
      VRM

I make these formal submissions against the PCN as follows:

1. The incursion into the yellow box junction was de minimis. Further, I was prevented from changing lane to go forward by traffic undertaking me on the left.

2. I put you to strict proof that the junction is compliant with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.

3. This box is not at a junction since it is solely on Clarence Street.


4. I bring a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN is unenforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided. Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police in such circumstances or, indeed, make an insurance claim.

In light of the above, I ask that you cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully

Name (Registered keeper)

Address
« Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 02:22:29 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

Prezbo

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2024, 03:24:38 pm »
Thank you so much..

Hippocrates

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2024, 07:32:21 pm »
No worries. I found a case which may help.  Later.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

Prezbo

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2024, 06:39:46 pm »
Ok great.  I have submitted and will let you know what they reply with.

Hippocrates

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2024, 09:53:48 pm »
Cool.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

Prezbo

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2024, 02:23:39 pm »
Hi there - I have had a response and they have rejected the appeal  :(

I have attached a scan of the response...

Hippocrates

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2024, 02:29:19 pm »
I think there is enough in the NOR to go to the Tribunal.  Also a fettering of discretion:  "unable to cancel".

The location does not exist.  I am happy to represent you if you want to take it to adjudication.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 02:46:42 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"

Prezbo

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Re: Kingston 31J:31j Entering and stopping in box junction A307 Clarence St
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2024, 03:10:24 pm »
Hello

Thanks for the reply.  How would we proceed?

Thanks
Chet