3. Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]  (Read 520 times)

0 Members and 2000 Guests are viewing this topic.

Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« on: »
Hi all,

I hired a builder, Jack - fantasy name -, to carry out some renovation works at my flat, and bought for him a parking permit for the wrong zone (Zone L instead of Zone T) by mistake and because of confusing CPZ limits, more on this below. As a result we got three PCNs on dates 28/10/2024, 07/11/2024 and 08/11/2024. We did not realize the mistake until we received the third PCN, just because the officer left a note together with the PCN.

He challenged the first two and after realizing my mistake, I challenged the third one and mentioned also the first two in my notes (please see below). The council rejected the challenges on date 15/11/2024 via email to him, but it never replied to my challenge.

He received a NTO via post for the first two PCNs on date 16/12/2024. He has not received anything related to the third one yet.

I'd like to make a representation for the first two and wanted to ask you on what to do for the third one since a NTO has not been received yet, and I have not received any communication from the council on that one.

The basis of the appeal would procedural unfairness: I purchased a month-long visitor permit on the the RingGo App. The app automatically selects the zone on the basis of my address. I assumed the permit would allow him to park in front of the entrance of the building where I live, which is CPZ T, but instead the permit is valid for CPZ L (30412), which is literally right above Clephane Road on St Pauls Road. The building where I live is right a the intersection of the two zones. Second, I would like to also to ask to change the code from 12 to 19, since I had a permit, but for the wrong zone.

Below all the correspondence and PCNs.

Could you please help me to understand if there is anything I can do to avoid paying the full amount? I understand the mistake is mine, but it seems a bit extortionate to charge me that much given the cost of the permit and all the confusion with the zones.



First two PCN:




Third PCN:




Rejection email from the council to Jack attached.



NTOs sent to Jack:





This the informal challenge I submitted online, acknowledged by the council, but have not received a reply yet.

Quote
Please note I'm challenging the fines for the builder I hired. As he incurred in the fines for a permit I agreed to purchase for him to be able to carry out his work.
 
Dear Sir or Madam, Parking ticket number: IZ32725077, IZ32951702, IZ32925509 Vehicle registration number: LK71TVD I applied for a month-long permit for the builder I hired, Jack, to carry out renovation works at my flat. We received parking tickets on dates 28/10/2024, 07/11/2024 and 08/11/2024 but I believe there are mitigating circumstances to explain why we had parked where we did, and I would like to submit an appeal for the following reasons: • The RingGo app automatically selects a wrong zone for the permit. My flat is in between the L and T CPZ zone. The parking bay in front of my flat seems to be a T zone, but the RingGo app selects the L zone when I apply using my home address. The L zone is just on the other side of the building, but it does not cover the parking bays in front of my flat, where one would naturally expect to be allowed to park with a permit. The permit cost GBP 666.00 and I received these 3 tickets before finding out what went wrong because a kind officer left a note. As this is the first time buying a permit (I do not own a car), and given the circumstances above I would like to appeal and have the three ticket waived. I'll make sure to change the permit and Dom will park in the right zone in the meanwhile. And furthermore to ask whether the default resident bay zone for my Flat could be set to T. Attached the receipt.

Yours faithfully,


[ Guests cannot view attachments ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 05:30:32 pm by Albigrucci »
Logged

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook

Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #1 on: »
What was the challenge for the first ones? No matter as I think you have a strong case on the Ringgo zone issue but to be clear does it select a location code?

Their rejection on wrong location is petty and we have successfully challenged this before and some councils cancel in any case for a location code where they have suffered no loss but adjudicators can't use mitigation if this alone is pushed to the tribunal.

Adjudicators are much more likely to find in your favour where a council's system has led to the 'error'.

And is the rejection offering. single payment of £65 for all three PCNs?



Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #2 on: »
Hi Stamfordman,

Thanks a lot for your reply.

While I wait for Jack to give me details on the first two PCNs challenges:

- On the RingGo app: I selected a Permission to Park permit and after filling in my details, including my address, this is the permit the app / website selects for me:



CPZ L (34012) , which is in St. Pauls Road, whereas the entrance to the building is in Clephane Road, and the parking bay in front of it is on CPZ T, of which I don't know the location code, I assume 34018 on the basis of the notice of rejection.

Checking the council zone locator here and using my postcode, it returns the same CPZ L zone as the RingGo app. To be clear, I do not understand why I cannot select the 'right' bay, and I was wondering whether those are reserved for residents of other buildings in front of ours.

- On the rejection offering: I assumed it was 65 each, but re-reading the wording now I understand I should have called them, as I could have considered to settle for a one single payment of 65.

I can also see that for the third PCNs there is no NTO delivered yet, I have not received a reply from my informal challenge yet, but it seem I can make the challenge again on the council website.
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #3 on: »
I think that screenshot shows you have a very good case as it doesn't say what road or bay(s) it applies to. Presumably you just told your builder you'd bought a virtual permit to park outside your building.

By the way we know your builder is called Dom - is he a Jack of all trades as I may need one myself. I live near you. 
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #4 on: »
Ah I forgot to change Jack's real name in the last bit of the correspondence. But yeah, he is a Jack of all trades, happy to send you a PM for details.

By the way, you were asking for the content of the first two challenges. Since at that time we didn't realize there was a CPZ zone issue, we just wrote to the council that we had paid for a permit.

Thanks again for the support.
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #5 on: »
I think he should make formal reps to the PCNs but it is complicated by the PCNs being his not yours but he was acting in good faith on your permit.

See if others have views.

Who is the registered keeper of the van though - if it's leased that is a spanner.
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #6 on: »
OP, you are a legal stranger to these matters and therefore 'you' cannot make reps although you could help the registered keeper whose identity - as in whether 'Jack' or a lease company- has already been queried.

'Jack', if considered to be the 'owner' of the vehicle, is the person liable for the penalties, unless successfully challenged.

Was the permit virtual or physical?

If virtual, what did you tell 'Jack' and what did he ask as regards parking? There must have been a conversation because no tradesperson (at least no-one who wants to remain in business and needs a car for their work in London) doesn't raise this issue for London-based customers if only to be reimbursed for the Congestion and potential Emissions charges as well as potential parking coats.

Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #7 on: »
Hi H C Andersen,

Correct, there was a conversation: I told Jack he could have parked in the bay in front of the building entrance because I bought a month-long virtual permit through the RingGo app. That was agreed before the work started.

This a mistake of mine: I never sent him the permit's details, I just told him he could park there. I do realize he is liable for the fines, but I should be the one paying them, or/and taking the necessary time to understand how to properly challenge them.

But thanks for highlighting this, because that could be why I never received an answer from the council on the third PCB challenge. Perhaps he should have  filed it, or me by proper delegation.
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #8 on: »
Thanks.

What actually happened when he found the first PCN? Didn't this trigger something in his head that something was amiss?

I'm wondering how to exploit the nonsense of their reply without giving the game away. IMO, if the keeper does not want to alert them to their failure to consider, which IMO is what their reply amounts to, then don't go in with location codes. The keeper could use more general references such as 'I refer to the above PCN, the NTO issued on *** and your previous reply dated *** which I still struggle to understand as regards my representations and submit those representations again as follows.

...whatever the keeper wants to say....

And hope to get a reply in similar, incomprehensible(as regards the reps) form which could form the basis of an appeal on procedural grounds.

Reps need to be submitted by 14 Jan at the latest.
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #9 on: »
That was kind of my fault, again. Jack told me right away, but I wrongly assumed there must have been a mistake, since I had paid for a permit using my flat location. He challenged the first two by attaching the receipt of the permit. At the third one, thanks to the officer hint, we understood the CPZ zone was the wrong one. That's when I challenged the third one and never got a reply, probably because, as you said, I am a legal stranger in the matter.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have a question related to their nonsensical rejection: Why is that the case? Is it because they state those codes (34012 and 34018) are not reported on any signs in the streets?

Also, I see that in the council website, I can still make an informal challenge for the third ticket. I understand my challenge was improper as not the keeper, but I do not understand how come this option is still available, and how come I have not received any follow up from the council, although they acknowledged the challenge and wrote that I will receive a reply.


Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #10 on: »
The location numbers are a red herring as they don't appear on the bay signs. The only difference is the zone - IS-T or IS-L.

Is your flat entrance on Clephane Road? I really do think that you bought permits in good faith of their system and a footling bay sign error in proximity to your flat should be accepted as their responsibility. 

There has been no loss to the council and for them to enforce this I think would go beyond mitigation to impropriety.
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #11 on: »
Is it because they state those codes (34012 and 34018) are not reported on any signs in the streets?

IMO, the numbers are actually central to their lack of proper consideration.

The contravention grounds are of labyrinthine complexity known as Code 12 which scopes:

Residents permits, virtual and physical related to individually signed bays;
Ditto for a zone marked only by entrance signs e.g. a Permit Parking Area;
Non-display of parking rights in the form of a voucher or pay and display ticket; and
Non-payment of the parking charge.

And the driver is supposed to know which of the above applies.
Ditto the owner who probably wasn't even there!

In a perfect world the correct grounds were code 16 'Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required.'

Simple. Tells the driver that they parked in a permit space without displaying or holding the necessary permit.

The authority's reply actually states this in its first paragraph which is fine, or it would have been if they hadn't then waffled on about location numbers which apply ONLY to paying to park. So on the one hand they state clearly that the PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a residents parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher.

OK, so this clearly identifies which of the elements in the grounds apply and by extension those which do not.

And their reasoning.
..

Talks about location numbers which have NOTHING whatsoever to do with permit identifiers!
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #12 on: »
Stamfordman, H C Andersen, thanks a lot for your help.

Yes, my flat entrance is on Clephane Road.

I'll follow your suggestions and 'help' Jack to make reps without giving away the game.

If they insist on location codes I'll help Jack appeal on procedural grounds basis with their reply and the RingGo location codes.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #13 on: »
Post a draft here first of formal reps to NTOs.
Logged
Re: Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]
« Reply #14 on: »
Hi,

This is what we plan to use for formal representations:

--------------------------------------------------

Representation ground:
The alleged contravention did not occur.

VRN: LK71TVD
PCNs: IZ32725077, IZ32951702, IZ32925509

Dear Islington Council,

I am writing in reference to the PCNs: IZ32725077, IZ32951702, IZ32925509 issued to my vehicle LK71TVD on Clephane Road on dates 28/10/2024, 07/11/2024 and 08/11/2024 and to the related Notice to Owner dated 16/12/2024. And, moreover, in reference to your reply of my informal challenge of the above PCNs, which is still not clear to me, and wish to submit formal representations against these PCNs and NTOs as follows.

The alleged contravention did not occur: my client paid for a month-long visitor parking permit using the RingGo app, the usage of which is recommended by the council. The permit was purchased in good faith using his address. And I parked accordingly. As good citizens, we had no intention of not paying for parking. The payment went to the council in any case and therefore the council is not at loss. We can only apologize for any error. In attachment the receipt of the parking permit.

Yours sincerely,


---------------------------

This the screenshot of the receipt: I just realized I never uploaded it.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »
  3. Islington, code 12 parked without valid permit, Clephane Road[Zone T]