3. Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
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dexx99

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2024, 02:14:27 pm »
The only number is a 24 hour automated payment line.

When I click on the Moving Traffic link it just routes to a web page that defines the description of the process:
Screenshot 2024-11-14 133831 by Dexx99, on Flickr

If you look on page 2 of the PCN detailing how to make a Representation Online I have followed the exact instruction to make an appeal:
 
WhatsApp Image 2024-10-23 at 01.21.13 (2) by Dexx99, on Flickr

Clicking on the tabs on the Manage Your Penalty Charge Notice I get the following via the

Map Location link:
Screenshot 2024-11-14 135147 by Dexx99, on Flickr

View Images Link:
Screenshot 2024-11-14 135229 by Dexx99, on Flickr

Add Futher Information Link:
Screenshot 2024-11-14 135324 by Dexx99, on Flickr

Screenshot 2024-11-14 135353 by Dexx99, on Flickr


Key Events Link:
Screenshot 2024-11-14 135439 by Dexx99, on Flickr

There is an option to submit by Email, but presumably if the Appeal deadline has been incorrectly filed as expired it may reject the email as out of time too?

Thanks a million John UK for jumping in on this, over to the Experts if there is any further help to recommend the next best course of action?

Thanks in advance.   
   
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John U.K.

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2024, 03:33:18 pm »
I tried successfully clicking on 'Add Further Information' and opened a page for submitting. I suggest you use that to make representation. Begin by drawing attention to the error, post a draft here, keep a hard copy and a copy of any automated receipt.


Quote
Add Further Information

Date
    07/10/2024 15:29
PCN number
    NJ41067639
VRM
    NL58TKV

Street
    WESTBROOK ROAD J/W THE WARREN

Offence Code
    52M
Offence
    Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)

Please use the box below to provide information you would like the Council to consider in relation to this PCN or further information if you have already made a challenge or representation. You must include your name, postal address with postcode and e-mail address, or the Council will not be able to respond to your correspondence. You can upload supporting documents instead of, or together with more information, but the document(s) must also include your name, postal address with postcode and e-mail address, if you have not typed this into the box below.

.
Additional information
Your Details
Title
Forename
Surname
Telephone
Email
Confirm Email
House Name/Number
Address Line 1
Post Code
Your Notes
Upload Documents

You can upload up to 3 files for the Council to consider.

Supported File Types: DOC;DOCX;JPG;JPEG;PNG

Max file size: 5 MB.
Drop files here to upload

And this is the 'Key Events' tab:

Quote
Key Events

Date
    07/10/2024 15:29
PCN number
    NJ41067639
VRM
    NL58TKV

Street
    WESTBROOK ROAD J/W THE WARREN

Offence Code
    52M
Offence
    Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)

PCN events
Date
   
Description
08/11/2024 17:02   Image scanned to case
08/11/2024 17:02   On Hold :Workflow
16/10/2024 03:00   PCN Issued

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dexx99

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2024, 04:58:05 am »
I'v e just been looking at the Key Events status for my PCN and it shows the following:

Screenshot 2024-11-26 044424 by Dexx99, on Flickr

Does the fact that that on the 14th November there is a status of 'Off-Hold Compensate' back-up John-UK's theory that LBOH had incorrectly set the last day to make representations by up until the 13th instead of the 14th November?   
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dexx99

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2025, 05:25:20 pm »
Hi Guys,

I received the NOR from LBOH for the representations submitted on-line on 17/11/24.

WhatsApp Image 2025-01-30 at 16.33.53 (2) by Dexx99, on Flickr

WhatsApp Image 2025-01-30 at 16.33.53 (1) by Dexx99, on Flickr

WhatsApp Image 2025-01-30 at 16.33.53 by Dexx99, on Flickr

WhatsApp Image 2025-01-30 at 16.33.52 (2) by Dexx99, on Flickr

WhatsApp Image 2025-01-30 at 16.33.52 (1) by Dexx99, on Flickr

WhatsApp Image 2025-01-30 at 16.33.52 by Dexx99 , on Flickr

WhatsApp Image 2025-01-30 at 16.33.52 (3) by Dexx99, on Flickr


LBOH are offering me the discounted rate of 50% as normal if I decide to pay within 28 days. Just to confirm when does the 28 days end according to 'date served'?

Although paying £130 instead of £65 will hurt a lot financially I am happy to risk going to the Adjudicator with any argument that the forum may suggest because I am loathed to pay these sharks on principal until I am forced to.

I should have had until the end of the 14th November 2024 to make representations, but as was stated previously the appeal process on the LBOH website appears to have been closed prematurely .

As Key events shows the status changed to 'Off Hold' to 'On hold' after I submitted the reps using the 'Add Further Information' tab.

Hence, could I go to the adjudicator with the representation that technically LBOH infringed on my right of appeal by closing the window of appeal too early?
 
Screenshot 2024-11-26 044424 by Dexx99, on Flickr

Thanks as always for your kind assistance in advance and suggestions of how I may be able to submit a defense to the Aujudicator asap.
 
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dexx99

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2025, 03:09:36 am »
Hi Guys,

Any advice of how best to proceed would be much appreciated.
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Incandescent

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2025, 11:53:06 am »
Quote from: dexx99 on February 04, 2025, 03:09:36 am
Hi Guys,

Any advice of how best to proceed would be much appreciated.
In your post 18 you told us this : -

Quote
Hi Guys,

I received the NOR from LBOH for the representations submitted on-line on 17/11/24.

The NoR gave you 14 days from receipt of their NoR to pay the discount or register an appeal at London Tribunals. So the 14 days to pay the discount is well gone. But in your post you also told us they were offering the discount for 28 days, but they gave you 14 days to pay the discount and 28 days to pay the full amount, or you could register an appeal with London Tribunals. Yet we haven't heard from you since mid-November. So you have lost the opportunity to pay the discount. The time must fast be approaching when they are going to serve a Charge Certificate, which cuts off all appeal options, so you need either to pay up now, or register an appeal with London Tribunals. I would say, register the appeal when you can put your arguments against the PCN to an unbiased adjudicator. The penalty is the same £130 if you lose.
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dexx99

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2025, 05:17:43 am »
Ah sorry not been too well due to my mental health disability and missed the nuance that the discounted period was only for 14 days from date served (whatever that means??).

The Date of issue of the NOR is 22nd January 2025 so 28 days takes me to 25th February so presumably I can register an appeal to London Tribunals on-line anytime before the end of that period?

I will appeal that my window for submitting reps was technically infringed to before 14th November. Most likely a long shot, but nothing to lose now as you say as the period to pay the discount has ended so will cost me £130 either way.

Unfortunately, not sure I have another legally justifiable reason to argue against the contravention.

Kicking myself as I didn't see the sign as my eyes were focused (as the new signs are on posts higher than eye level) on the road ahead. Something I am compelled to do due to my disability. Moreover, my carer couldn't attend the GP with me that day.

I stick to the same route home to help reduce my anxiety when I travel by car alone. This is the route I always take home from the GP. Just a shame the last time I used the route there was no such restriction so got caught out sadly.

Anyway, thanks for the advice I will start preparing my appeal asap.
   
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dexx99

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2025, 04:24:28 pm »
Hi Guys,

Please could you help confirm the actual timeline to appeal to the appeal according to the issue date of the NOR?

Just because with my illness atm I may struggle to compile my appeal so just don't want end up missing the deadline and being issued with a charge certificate and having to pay £197.

Thanks.
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Incandescent

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2025, 10:58:37 pm »
Register an appeal now. FOr your appeal, use "the contravention did not occur", and put 'details to follow' where your appeal text box is.
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dexx99

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2025, 02:40:58 am »
I was filling in the appeal process on-line and just two questions I needed to clarify.

Presumably I select: 'Yes, I will be representing myself' and 'have my appeal considered in my absence'?

Then and I will submit the appeal accordingly if Incandescent or anyone will let me know how best to answer those questions.

Many thanks for your continued support as always.
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John U.K.

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2025, 08:37:15 am »
Our advice is never, ever, opt for a postal hearing on papers (in your absence).

BUT, personal hearings may be face-to-face in person or by telephone, and LT are currently moving towards video hearings.

See the process here:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
and
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appeals-process-explained
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Hippocrates

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2025, 08:51:43 pm »
@dexx99 This PCN is invalid. Let's cut to the chase.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54603/#msg54603

Triggered wrong action under If you do nothing.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mq9MAnLdByhCxR5IzpKhvDT7LKlTOHUJ/view

The PCN in this case states that the increased charge may be payable and
a Charge Certificate served if the PCN has not been paid before the end of
the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice.

I am happy to represent you as this PCN is even worse than the one cited. PM sent.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 09:26:50 pm by Hippocrates »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Hippocrates

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2025, 10:59:48 am »
@cp8759  Please see the wording under If you do nothing:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hounslow-code-52m-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-types-of-vehic/msg41945/#msg41945

Can't seem to copy the exact link to the relevant page.

Website is none too famous either.

Same issue as the Haringey case won a few weeks ago.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2025, 11:06:12 am by Hippocrates »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Hippocrates

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2025, 11:35:50 am »
@dexx99

Quote from: dexx99 on February 05, 2025, 05:17:43 am

The Date of issue of the NOR is 22nd January 2025 so 28 days takes me to 25th February so presumably I can register an appeal to London Tribunals on-line anytime before the end of that period?
 

No: date of deemed service is 24th January so I make it 20th February. As stated, I am happy to take care of this one for you and lodge the appeal. There are various strong grounds.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2025, 11:38:54 am by Hippocrates »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

cp8759

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Re: Hounslow, code 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles)
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2025, 02:36:41 pm »
@dexx99 if Hippocrates has offered to represent you I'd take him up on that.

As for the issues with the website, the Hounslow website changed the tab at top of the page from "Make representation" or "Challenge PCN" or whatever it is into "Add Further Information" once a representation has been made. The evidence suggests that a representation was submitted on 8 November:



Did you send them something in the post? If not, it might be that their post room has made a mistake and scanned someone else's paperwork to your case.

Once you get the tribunal evidence pack everything should become clear from what they produce in evidence item E.

As others have said you should never, ever opt for a decision in your absence: if you get a refusal in your absence based on the adjudicator saying something that you have a good answer to, at that point it's too late as you've already lost. I don't quite understand why someone wouldn't want to be in the room when the decision is being made. You don't have to attend in person, you can have one of us (in this case Hippocrates as he's already offered) attend on your behalf.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

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