3. Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #15 on: »
Don't delay by trying to hunt down a traffic order.

In simple terms traffic orders should not include references to PCNs or even penalties because this is not their function. A penalty is currently payable when a motorist fails to comply with a lawful provision of an order* because the Traffic Management Act says so. Nothing to do with the order itself or even the enabling legislation under which it was made(RTRA).

However, the Ts&Cs at a car park should warn motorists of the implications of failing to comply i.e. a penalty.

*- lawful provisions as regards the TMA do not include selling from vehicles/not having tax etc. despite some orders still including such matters.

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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #16 on: »
Here are the P&D machine terms.  There are no other terms anywhere.




As the discount period ends on Monday, I would really appreciate a gut feeling on whether anything here is likely to bring a win at NTO or NPAS.

Thanks
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #17 on: »
'A penalty charge may be issued for non-compliance' [with the conditions] is there.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: dave-o on June 27, 2024, 09:08:17 am
I'll get some pics of the P&D text.  Is there somewhere I can search a database of PPOs?
I have requested the PPO from the council, but it's not due back till 22 July.

Quote from: dave-o on June 27, 2024, 04:12:20 pm
As the discount period ends on Monday, I would really appreciate a gut feeling on whether anything here is likely to bring a win at NTO or NPAS.
If you wait for the notice to owner and then make representations within 14 days of the date of issue, the discount is normally reoffered anyway for a further 14 days even if the council rejects, so there is limited risk in taking it to the NTO stage. It's only at the tribunal that's it's all or nothing (as long as you don't miss that 14 day deadline to challenge the NTO, which the NTO doesn't even mention so if we didn't tell you, you wouldn't know about it).
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #19 on: »
Thank you then, I shall save my money and wait!  Appreciate your help.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on June 24, 2024, 03:59:18 pm


I'd write back.

You don't need a copy of the PCN but you do need and require the authority to provide details of:

How the penalty may be contested e.g. by whom, timeframe, in what form, how and to whom must this be sent etc;
The authority's duties in this regard;
The rules relating to payment,
What happens if payment is not made;

Their reply to this request:

Quote
Thank you for your email received in this office on 26th June 2024 in connection with the PCN XXXXXX.


Please be advised that you are entitled to appeal the PCN within 28 days of the PCN being issued. This can be done via our website (https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk) or via our postal address (Parking Services, PO Box 1180, Uxbridge, UB8 9DH), as previously advised. You have until 17th July 2024 to make an appeal.

 

If you decide to appeal the PCN, once your appeal has been received, the case will be on hold until an appeals officer is able to investigate. Please be advised that all our appeals have to actioned in date order, from when the appeal was submitted. We would also advise that in general it takes at least 10 working days for an appeal to be investigated, however, this can take longer due to the high volume of workload we receive.


Once the appeals officer has investigated, their decision will be informed to you via a letter, sent out to the address provided with the appeal.


You have also been given the opportunity to pay the discounted rate of the PCN within the first 14 days of the PCN being issued. As previously advised the discounted rate was available up to the 1st July. This date has now passed and the PCN has now increased to the full amount of £60.00.


If you wish to make payment, you can do so via our website (https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk), our payment line (0330 057 1889) or via cheque (sent to Parking Services, PO Box 1180 Uxbridge UB8 9DH). You must not make payment if you wish to appeal the PCN.


If an appeal or payment has not been received, then the case will progress in line with legislation and will result in us requesting the DVLA for the registered keepers details and sending out a formal Notice to Owner.


All appeals and challenges are dealt with as per the Traffic Management Act 2004 and associated statutory instruments.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 03:20:13 pm by dave-o »
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #21 on: »
Are their total responses those posted on 24 June and this last one?
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #22 on: »
No, sorry, there was an earlier one in reply to a request in which i didn't specify your minimum requirements.

Quote
Thank you for your email received in this office on the 26th June 2024 in connection with your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

 

Please be advised the PCN number is XXXXXXXXX, issued on the  17th June 2024  at  17:11  in  Rockingham Recreation Ground Car Park . Issued for code 83 -No valid Pay and display Ticket.

 

The discount amount of £30.00 is available up to and including 1st July 2024 , after which it will increase to the full amount of £60.00.

 

Please check via our website  https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk to view your PCN Details.

 

 

If you wish to dispute this parking ticket, please do not make payment and put your challenge in writing to:

 

Parking Services,

PO Box 1180

Uxbridge

UB8 9DH

 

or via our website https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk

 

 

The different payment methods are listed below.

 

· A cheque or postal order, made payable to London Borough of Hillingdon, can be sent to Parking Services, PO Box 1180 Uxbridge UB8 9DH. Please ensure the Notice number is clearly written on the reverse of the cheque.

 

· Ringing the automated payment line on 03300 517 889 is available 24 hours a day.

 

· A personal visit to the Cashiers Office located at the Civic Centre, Uxbridge.

 

· On-line at https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk

Thanks
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #23 on: »
Main orders:

The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985
The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985 (Variation No. 19 ) 2005, which makes provisions for P&D machines
The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985 (Variation No 21) 2006, which adds Rockingham Recreation Ground car park to the order,
The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985 (Variation No. 31) 2009, which alters the parking charges in Rockingham Recreation Ground car park.

If anyone wants to look at all the orders they're saved in this folder, but as far as I can see the order has never been updated for civil enforcement and it still makes reference to excess charge notices and it being a criminal offence to fail to pay an ECN.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #24 on: »
But OP IMO this doesn't invalidate the order's provisions whose enforcement would still be covered by this:

In this case:

Schedule 7 to the TMA

3(1)In Greater London there is a parking contravention in relation to a vehicle if it is stationary in circumstances in which any of the offences listed below is committed.

...

(d)an offence under section 35A(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (contravention of orders relating to parking places provided under section 32 or 33 of that Act);

This is why orders should not refer to enforcement(other than possibly removal of vehicles) because they get overtaken by changes in other legislation.
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #25 on: »
Thanks for locating the PPOs, much appreciated.  Also appreciate any opinions on them.

So judging on the above two posts, I'm not sure if the point on the PPO is strong or not?  Is it something that could go either way?

I guess there's no mileage on the ticket only having expired for 13 minutes on the grounds of de minimis?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2024, 01:15:36 pm by dave-o »
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #26 on: »
The orders' references to ECNs are not grounds for appeal IMO because they don't bear upon the issue. PCNs are issued pursuant to primary and secondary legislation, not what an order might or might not state.

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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #27 on: »
The NTO has arrived as follows:






If there's nothing of use here, will I just submit a generic appeal and hope they re-offer the discount?

I still haven't seen the PCN and I don't think this NTO offers me an opportunity to either?
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #28 on: »
Hi, any ideas for this please?  Thanks
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Re: Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN
« Reply #29 on: »
Unless instructed otherwise I will give it a few days and then try to appeal on the basis of it only being 13 minutes over the ticket displayed.  I don't imagine this will fly but then I will hopefully be offered the reduced sum again.
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  3. Hillingdon Council Car Park PCN