3. Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
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Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #30 on: »
Quote from: mairajbhaii on April 02, 2025, 12:11:29 am
Quote from: cp8759 on April 01, 2025, 11:40:51 pm
Did you send the letter of authority from the Director of the company together with the representation?

No, not with representation earlier, i got the letter later on from the director
So reply by sending them the letter.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #31 on: »
@cp8759

Im sending this alongwith authority letter to the return address, please see if this serves the purpose.

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M3iJi
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #32 on: »
Video:



The contravention is made out, here's a draft that's much more to the point:

Dear London Borough of Hillingdon,

I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty fails to unambiguously state the matters that must be stated on the notice, specifically the notice fails to convey the effect of paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 as it provides at best information that is ambiguous. This is because there is no unequivocal indication of whether the penalty may increase to £195 after 28 days from the date of the notice, or 28 days from the date of service of the notice.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online rather than by post, just make sure to upload the letter of authority when you are asked if you have any documents to upload.

Make sure to take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #33 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on April 08, 2025, 06:59:33 pm
Video:



The contravention is made out, here's a draft that's much more to the point:

Dear London Borough of Hillingdon,

I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty fails to unambiguously state the matters that must be stated on the notice, specifically the notice fails to convey the effect of paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 as it provides at best information that is ambiguous. This is because there is no unequivocal indication of whether the penalty may increase to £195 after 28 days from the date of the notice, or 28 days from the date of service of the notice.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online rather than by post, just make sure to upload the letter of authority when you are asked if you have any documents to upload.

Make sure to take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page.

Hi,

I have appealed this trhu online pcn challenge and attached the authority letter as well.

find attached the screenshot of confirmation page.

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M3iJi
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #34 on: »
@cp8759

Find attached the response from council.

Now what do I do to this .....????

How can they deny eveyrthing all reponses so far.


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M3iJi
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #35 on: »
There is a simple process to revert the matter to the stage where you submitted representations.

While they try to intimidate you by saying they can register the debt at "the county court" and instruct bailiffs, the plain fact is that the "county court" is the Traffic Enforcement Centre, a special civil court with no court rooms and no judges. There is no possibility whatever of a CCJ, because the legal process was written to make sure these can never be issued.

Once the PCN debt is registered, they MUST send you an Order for Recovery. This adds £10 onto the Charge Certificate amount, being the TEC registration fee. They will include the form for submitting a Statutory Declaration that you submitted reps but received no letter of rejection.

Of course, you can phone the authority to tell them you have their acceptance response to your representations, and h have received no response. It's possible they may tell you they have responded, and give you the date of it. If so, this means, if they won't cancel the CC, that you must wait for the Order for Recovery as above. This could be weeks away. So once the period to pay the CC expires, check with TEC about every 10-14 days to see if the debt is registered. You may also be able to find out from the council website, as once they register the debt, the amount shown increases by £10. You don't have to wait for the paper OfR to turn up, you can download the SD form from the TEC website. You need a PE3
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice
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Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #36 on: »
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Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #37 on: »
@mairajbhaii while the advice from John and Incandescent is not wrong, you don't want to bother with the TEC process if you can possibly avoid it, that should really only be used as a last resort.

In the first instance please contact the council as a matter of urgency and try and get the following information about of them, in order of priority:

1) Has a notice of rejection been issued?
2) If yes, what is the verification code on the notice of rejection?
3) Can they email you a copy of the notice of rejection?

As long as you get a positive answer to at least one of these, you can appeal directly to the tribunal without having to faff about with getting a statutory declaration sworn. If they refuse to answer you might need to force their hand by making a formal subject access request, but in the first instance I would call up and ask as most councils will provide these answer over the phone.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #38 on: »
I did say the OP could contact the council. However, I shall emphasise this more in future posts. As said, going through the Statutory Declaration process is the last resort, literally,  and is a bit of a PITA !

We do seem to see a lot of threads where the OP submits reps then the first thing they get back is a Charge Certificate. I do wonder if councils are so perfect in their admin as to never miss sending out a letter of rejection.
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Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #39 on: »
I was informed by one other Musketeer of a new Practice Direction nowadays which bypasses the need for a council to refer the matter to the Tribunal.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #40 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on May 05, 2025, 10:55:44 pm
@mairajbhaii while the advice from John and Incandescent is not wrong, you don't want to bother with the TEC process if you can possibly avoid it, that should really only be used as a last resort.

In the first instance please contact the council as a matter of urgency and try and get the following information about of them, in order of priority:

1) Has a notice of rejection been issued?
2) If yes, what is the verification code on the notice of rejection?
3) Can they email you a copy of the notice of rejection?

As long as you get a positive answer to at least one of these, you can appeal directly to the tribunal without having to faff about with getting a statutory declaration sworn. If they refuse to answer you might need to force their hand by making a formal subject access request, but in the first instance I would call up and ask as most councils will provide these answer over the phone.

I have had been trying to contact phone council but seems humanly impossible to get thru, it leads you with yes or no recorded options but no real person attends the call in any options

Possibly will have to try visit them about this issue to inquire about notice of rejection or even acknowledging the responses submitted online.

Regards

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M3iJi
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #41 on: »
@mairajbhaii just force their hand by submitting a subject access request: https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/2479/Subject-access-request-form

All you need to do is submit a SAR asking for the notice of rejection for this PCN, you don't need to provide any reasons for why you want it.

There's no point in going there in person, the people who deal with PCNs are probably in some back office miles away from the main council offices. Even if you find the right office, I don't think there's any chance they'll come and speak to you face to face.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #42 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on May 06, 2025, 05:27:41 pm
@mairajbhaii just force their hand by submitting a subject access request: https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/2479/Subject-access-request-form

All you need to do is submit a SAR asking for the notice of rejection for this PCN, you don't need to provide any reasons for why you want it.

There's no point in going there in person, the people who deal with PCNs are probably in some back office miles away from the main council offices. Even if you find the right office, I don't think there's any chance they'll come and speak to you face to face.

Although i have now requested for SAR of Notice of rejection, but attached you will see the way they replied to me first time when i asked for video evidence and later again they extended the date due to some technical issue with 3rd party.

Expecting they will repeat this again this time as well.

Fingers crossed

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M3iJi
Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #43 on: »
The NOR won't be held by a third party, so you shouldn't have this problem.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Hillingdon council 31J - Entering stopping box junction PCN HN71513688
« Reply #44 on: »
@cp8759

Received these replies from council about SAR.

For response about separate request, i replied to them, treat this separate request, although the previous SAR request was for VDO evidence which was later available online, but SAR still pending and was extended for another 2 months.

Regards


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M3iJi
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