3. Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
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Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
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Just received a PCN through the post. My partner was driving at the time, I think she's fairly bang to rights, but just wondered if there's any grounds for appeal here?
Thanks!



Video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bR_u6BvpDR2oXeudHi7kPsy6_FlW9fzR/view?usp=drivesdk
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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #1 on: »
viewing video requires asking for permission. can you make it public.
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Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man
Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #2 on: »
You are right - this is a slam dunk contravention.

We may be able to find something on the PCN or website.

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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #3 on: »
Thought so, was clutching at straws as could really do without the extra expense. If you spot anything in the PCN please do let me know!

@mickR - apologies, @stamfordman very kindly shared above for me
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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #4 on: »
I expect your wife thought the car ahead would go through the lights - if the car had stopped at a green light inexplicably that could have been a case....
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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #5 on: »
The PCN and their website are pants.

Please go onto the site as if to challenge and screenshot and report back.

The PCN contains two lists of grounds which do not tally with each other. There is no ground re allowing the vehicle to rest and there is no ground re traffic order being invalid.

I have two cases pending shortly on this.  I will draft later as I am supposed to be on holiday.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2024, 07:39:19 pm by Hippocrates »
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #6 on: »
I make these formal representations against PCN     

1.The PCN contains two lists of grounds, one of which wrongly includes a ground re the traffic order being invalid which, itself, invalidates the PCN.  Further, in both lists there is yet another ground which is incorrect as it too belongs to another legislation: the vehicle had been permitted to rest etc.

2. The PCN does not include the option to pay by post.

Therefore, in light of the above, please cancel it as the PCN is unenforceable. Should you not agree to do so, I will take the matter to adjudication if necessary.

*****

Edited.  Leave the website for the Tribunal. This mirrors a case won a few months ago.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2024, 07:40:37 pm by Hippocrates »
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #7 on: »
@Hippocrates appreciate the reply whilst on holiday! I might be wrong but I can see options to pay by post on the PCN. Also, I just tried to submit informal reps based on your post above and it says an NTO has been sent...

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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #8 on: »
Your Havering webpage extracts show the complete shite that is the Havering website related to PCNs.
There is NO informal representations stage with a moving traffic PCN that is sent by post to the keeper of the vehicle.

A response saying a Notice to Owner has already been sent is also wildly misleading to those who don't know the law and the regulations. Havering are well known as a bunch of chysters when it comes to PCNs and their enforcement, so if it were me, I'd follow Hippocrates advice and take them all the way to London Tribunals and hold their hand to the fir.
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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #9 on: »
We'll have a go and see where it ends up! Is it just a case of copying @Hippocrates post to submit as reps?
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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #10 on: »
Just received the below through from Havering, any suggestions as to what to do here...?

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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #11 on: »
Please to advise what has happened, if anything, between 23rd October last and today.

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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #12 on: »
Reps were submitted as suggested by Hippocrates, then no further correspondence received or sent until this popped through the letterbox today.
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Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #13 on: »
 :o  ::)

Did you receive a Charge Certificate?
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Havering - Stopping in a Box Junction - 31J Station Road/Branfill Road, RM14
« Reply #14 on: »
I never received a Charge Certificate, the only correspondence I received was dated 18th October and then this today.
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