Author Topic: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB holder, half of badge fell off dashboard  (Read 1045 times)

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dbcc33

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Hi All,
Wonder if you can help with this one:
1. Parked in a residents bay with BB but one half of it (the main half not clock half) must have fallen from the dashboard as i shut the car door.
2. Was gone from car for maybe 5 mins to offload shopping and elderly, disabled relative who takes several minutes just to get settled and PCN already there when arriving to put shopping bag back in car minutes later.
3. Although the PCN states 10:32 to 10:39 i.e. 7 minutes, the photos provided only show 10:39 and 10:40 so is it possible the warden only observed for 1 min and not 7 mins? it felt as if I was only away from the car for 5 mins (but i wasnt counting).
4. is there a reasonable amount of time they need to give a BB holder, because for someone with restricted mobility it is not unreasonable to take a much longer time to transfer from car to house.
5. Other info to note is that i did write to the council a long time ago about replacing the blue holder for the badge as it had become disintegrated over time, but they never replied. The reason it was 2 halves is because the holder had broken in half. Had it been replaced, this may not have happened.
6. I previously had a PCN cancelled many many years ago for badge falling off (but that was the whole badge not half of it) so maybe this counts against me. But equally the last PCN i had cancelled was them issuing an illegal PCN and then apologising to me so don't know if i can use this in my favour or you cant conflate different PCNs.

Anyway the summary is yes it was a mistake, but wanted your expert opinion on whether it was worth an appeal or not.

I dont understand why they cant just have electronic records of BB holders like they did with road tax discs instead of penalising BB holders for genuine mistakes when they already have on record if a car is BB registered.

Any expert advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

PCN here:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/raiuh8ac0h0848ap9lklf/ADzsA7su5XB6-OjZJW7ir_U?rlkey=tmpa21fgivlt7u60u9qsrtbex&st=lb0x33vx&dl=0

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Enceladus

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Is it your Blue Badge? Or does it belong to your "elderly, disabled relative"?

Please get a copy of both sides of the BB. With an on-street PCN such as this it's always worth a go at initial informal represenations as the Council will re-offer the discount if they refuse. So you have nothing to lose by having a go.

I suggest a humble, contrite and polite letter of apology explaining what happened. Enclose a copy of both sides of the BB and quote the name and address of the BB holder. Make it clear that your releative was in the car at the relevant times. Terribly sorry, it was accidental, I'll make sure it doesn't happen again, I wasn't trying to evade a parking charge, an honest mistake, terribly sorry and please use your discretion to cancel the PCN. It wouldn't be in the interests of justice to pursue the case etc etc. See what comes back.

Are you the Reistered Keeper of the car and is the name and address correct and current on the V5c registration doc? Don't just assume it is, dig it out and check.

PS. It will be the BB holder's responsibility to obtain a new badge holder or wallet if the existing one is damaged.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2024, 06:18:40 pm by Enceladus »

dbcc33

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it is my fathers BB (he doesnt drive), i was driving him home and only left the car to offload him and his shopping.
You can say its his responsibility re the holder but he is cognitively impaired and therefore could no way have done this himself. in any case theres little that can e done if they just ignore you.
in the reps should i mention they never replied about replacing it or will that only irritate them?
the v5 etc is correct


dbcc33

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also just out of curiosity whose responsiblity is it to make sure it is properly displayed - his or mine? because if its his, then his disability means he forgets lots of things (he has memory impairment which i can prove from medical letters) so surely a reasonable adjustment is well reasonable? If its my responsbility then its a moot point.

stamfordman

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There are only four pics and none looking for the badge inside - did it fall on the floor or seat? And how?

The PCN is your responsibility as owner but if your father had say knocked it off getting out then that would be  factor. We had a case recently where I think a disabled person insisted on setting the clock (wrongly).

They must consider any challenge and especially one with a BB.

You do have three written off though.




dbcc33

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Thanks for your reply Stamfordman

The answer is i don't know how it got knocked off but when i returned to the car was on the passenger side floor and it could well have been my dad as he was sat on that side and dragged his walking stick across seat and dash getting out so it could have been that, but without a video recording how could i possibly know why?

The previous written off ones were not under the same circumstances and the most recent one was a council error which they apologised for.




stamfordman

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Send a polite challenge saying what you think happened and include a pic of the BB, saying this was an accident and you were entitled to park there.*
Emphasise that with a disabled person ensuring their wellbeing led to overlooking the accident with the BB. 
Say if the CEO had checked the side window he may well have seen the fallen BB.

*I'm assuming that in Harrow BB holders can park in resident bays? Was this a permit only bay or a shared use bay (permit and pay/display)?




H C Andersen

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- being drafted while the previous post was being posted...

If the required permit* is not displayed then the contravention is proved.

A claim that a BB was held and was displayed but somehow fell into the footwell goes to mitigation, it is not a statutory defence i.e. one which if the authority accept means they must cancel the PCN.

IMO, all you can do as suggested earlier is to write to polite and contrite challenge asking the authority to cancel using their discretionary powers.

*- this is a permit bay. You imply that even if a BB was displayed this would provide parking rights. However, this must be a council initiative because generally BB holders cannot park in permit bays reserved for specified users which this is, it's not shared use. Does the council permit BB holders to park in res bays?

(from the Govt's publication: Blue Badge Scheme - Rights and Responsibilities)
Places where you cannot park

Parking places reserved for specific users such as resident’s bays or loading bays. You may wish to check whether a particular local council has chosen to exempt Blue Badge holders from these restrictions.

dbcc33

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Thank you all for your responses. I have been parking there frequently for over 5 years with a BB and it has been fine. The traffic warden himself said its ok for BB holders to park there so i guess there must be provision.

I accept that it was a mistake but with strong mitigation. so basically you are saying they can use their discretion but it isnt a proper defence to proceed to tribunal for example?

H C Andersen

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The adjudicator cannot exercise the council's power of discretion i.e. determine a case on the grounds of mitigation. 

I dont understand why they cant just have electronic records of BB holders like they did with road tax discs instead of penalising BB holders for genuine mistakes when they already have on record if a car is BB registered.

The car isn't 'BB registered', only Motobility vehicles are. Your father may use his BB in anyone's vehicle in any qualifying area, effectively the whole country except some boroughs in London. Furthermore, you cannot use your vehicle and claim BB benefits unless the holder is with you or having been/to be transported. so you can see the impossibility of what you suggest. 

Enceladus

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To answer the earlier question.

The Harrow website suggests that parking in the Residents' bays is allowed where a Blue Badge is displayed. This is not unique to Harrow. Some London Boroughs allow BB parking and some don't.

"When can I park in a CPZ
..........................

Do you need a parking permit?
A parking permit is not required for:

vehicles displaying a Blue Badge
motorcycles parked in either pay-and-display bays or in resident bays.
If you have three or more unpaid Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs), you can't get a parking permit. This applies to both Resident and Business permits.
.........................."

dbcc33

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How about this?

I had parked at this location for 5-10mins only to drop-off my disabled father at his home and was entitled to park there as he is a Blue Badge holder (BB enclosed), which I checked was displayed on the dash.
However, as my father is physically and cognitively impaired, he needs assistance offloading the car and into the house and I recall him leaning in to get his walking stick and dragging it along dash and seat to exit the car. I was focusing on my father's wellbeing (he has restricted mobility and is a falls risk-medical evidence enclosed) and assisting him into the house, upon my return I realised one half of the BB (the blue holder had disintegrated and it had therefore separated into 2 halves) had fallen to the passenger side footwell and I already had a PCN!
If the CEO had checked the side window he may well have seen the fallen BB (I don't see any side photos).
Under the circumstances, please could you consider discretion since it is clear no charges were being evaded.

stamfordman

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a few tweaks - I wouldn't go into detail on the BB holder

I had parked at this location for 5-10mins only to drop-off my disabled father at his home and was entitled to park there owing to the exemption of transporting a Blue Badge holder (BB enclosed), which I checked was displayed on the dash.

However, as my father is physically and cognitively impaired, he needs assistance offloading the car and into the house and I recall him leaning in to get his walking stick and dragging it along dash and seat to exit the car. I was focusing on my father's wellbeing (he has restricted mobility and is a falls risk-medical evidence enclosed) and assisting him into the house, upon my return I realised one half of the BB (the blue holder had disintegrated and it had therefore separated into 2 halves) had fallen to the passenger side footwell and I already had a PCN!

If the CEO had checked the side window he may well have seen the fallen BB (I don't see any side photos).
Under the circumstances, please could you consider discretion since it is clear we were entitled to the exemption.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 10:35:33 am by stamfordman »

John U.K.

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Quote
he needs assistance offloading the car

I think he might need a lot of assistance offloading the car - a crane? :)

perhaps alighting? exiting? getting out of? followed by 'and getting into the house'?

dbcc33

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Thank you stamfordman and John - actually he does need quite a lot of assistance offloading but i take your point hes not an elephant - maybe alighting is a better word  :)

actually youve raised an important point - out of curiousity does such an exemption exist for loading/assisting elderly in residents bays without a BB - what do you do if you need to get someone to their home and they need assistance and there is no parking provision?

i.e. are there circumstances where you would have been allowed to offload/alight even without a BB in a residents bay?
interestingly that whole road used to be free - he has lived there for 60 years, they just made it permit only from 10am-11am to stop people leaving cars there and going to work on the tube. Now its silly things like this residents are being punished for.