Author Topic: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated (Read 80 times)

echo · « **on:** February 12, 2025, 07:23:17 pm »

Can anyone help me with this?

I recently received a PCN for making a No Right Turn at Kenton Service Road in Harrow, and I believe the signage at this location is inadequate, particularly at night. I’d really appreciate any advice, especially if anyone else has had similar issues.

Key Issues:
* No Entry & No Right Turn Signs Not Properly Illuminated – The signs have built-in lights, but they were not working on the night of the PCN and also when I went back to check.
* No Advance Warning from My Approach – The council claims there is an advance warning sign, but it is only visible to drivers approaching from the opposite direction.
* Signs Are Mounted Too High & at a Bad Angle – The No Right Turn sign looks over 4 metres high to me, making it difficult to see, especially at night.
* Junction Layout Prevents Proper Reflection – Due to the angle of approach, headlights do not illuminate the signs effectively, meaning, if it is actually installed, retroreflective material is insufficient (they definitely did not look reflective to me in any case).
* TSRGD 2016 Requirements Not Met – Since there are no 20 mph restriction signs nearby, I take it this road is 30 mph, from what I understand TSRGD 2016 requires signs within 50m of street lighting to be either illuminated or properly reflectorised. These signs did not meet that requirement.
* Harrow Council Rejected My Request for Clarification – I tried to call them for advice on sign illumination (on hold for over an hour, then cut off). When I emailed, they misinterpreted my message as an appeal and rejected it outright.

Due to this hasty rejection and my sense that this is PCN unreasonable, I have now drafted an appeal to the London Tribunals. I’ve included all relevant evidence and references in my draft appeal, which is attached below.

I also found a post on this forum from someone else who had the same issue at this location, even during daylight:

Page 1: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-50r-contravention-prohibited-right-turn-did-not-see-sign/

Page 2: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hounslow-pcn-622/?prev_next=prev#new

(Putting links for both pages in as I had some issues with the previous / next page links going to a different thread)

Any advice on how to strengthen my case would be greatly appreciated. All evidence is attached below. Thanks!

Google Street View (PLEASE NOTE: it looks very different at night - see my photos attached)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/sfd9dBguVqcgTU4x7

PCN Details:

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echo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 15, 2025, 08:18:13 pm »

Hi, I posted earlier about my PCN appeal regarding the poorly visible No Entry and No Right Turn signs in Harrow, but I haven’t had any replies yet. I’d appreciate any input, as I need to submit my appeal to London Tribunals by Monday.

To summarise the key issues:
   •   The signs were not illuminated despite having built-in lights.
   •   No advance warning from the direction I approached.
   •   Signs were positioned too high and at a poor angle for visibility.
   •   CCTV footage doesn’t show my initial stop and reversal, which highlights the lack of visibility.
   •   Council ignored my request for clarification and immediately rejected my enquiry as an appeal.
   •   TSRGD regulations suggest illumination was required due to the 30mph limit.

I’m finalising my appeal and want to ensure I’ve covered everything. Has anyone else successfully challenged a PCN for unclear signage like this junction or a similar location?

Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Incandescent · « **Reply #2 on:** February 15, 2025, 10:17:26 pm »

We've seen this location before. This successful case seems identical to your own: -

Quote

ETA Register of Appeals
Case Details
Case reference : 2240411930
Appellant : Ramesh Panchani
Authority : London Borough of Harrow
VRM : L4KHU

PCN Details
PCN :   HR75505884
Contravention date : 02 Aug 2024
Contravention time : 10:31:00
Contravention location : Kenton Road Service Road
Penalty amount : GBP 130.00
Contravention : Performing a prohibited turn

Referral date   -

Decision Date : -29 Nov 2024
Adjudicator : Edward Houghton
Appeal decision   : Appeal allowed
Direction : cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund any sims paid
Reasons   : The issue in this case is whether the No Right turn signs relied on by the Council were sufficiently clear. The Appellant has always maintained they were not and has produced photographs in support.
The site photographs taken on the 12th September, after the date of the alleged contravention, show the signs as being what I would regard as sufficiently visible. However the Council has not provided any photographs confirming the signage to be in that position before the alleged contravention date; and I have difficulty confirming from the CCTV footage that either sign was present. In particular the site photographs show the right hand sign mounted, with a light, above a No Entry sign. Although the No Entry sign can be seen I cannot see the No Right Turn sign and its light above it in the footage, and one would expect it to be clearly visible if it was there. On the evidence I am unable to be satisfied that the clarity of the signage is sufficiently proved and the Appeal is therefore allowed. If any sums have been paid these must be refunded.

Not only is the advanced warning sign unilluminated, it is partly turned to face the shops, thus making it likely to be missed at night, (assuming GSV May 2024 is still correct): -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNe9nXkXcQZKc1oZ8
The NRT signs are illuminated, but the one on the left is turned away from a vehicle approaching along the service road, and the other one is so high, one must doubt if it would be noticed by the same vehicle, and also it is end on to this approach, (again assuming the GSV view is still current).

Councils have a duty under LATOR Regulation 18 to place adequate signage and to maintain it for the whole life of the restriction. Here they have failed to do so, particularly maintenance. Clearly, you can cite the above case in your appeal, pointing out that your case was also at night.

echo · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2025, 12:08:21 am »

Thank you for your very helpful input Incandescent — this has been invaluable in strengthening my appeal.

I’ve now revised Point 8 (Legal Precedent) to include the case reference you provided (ETA 2240411930, Ramesh Panchani v. London Borough of Harrow). I’d really appreciate it if you could take a quick look and let me know if I’ve cited it correctly or if there’s anything I should refine further.

I’ll paste the updated section below — any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks again for your help.

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8. Legal Precedent - Unclear Signage May Render a PCN Unenforceable

There have been past cases where PCNs were cancelled due to unclear, obstructed, or insufficiently visible signage. Drivers cannot be expected to comply with a restriction if the required signage is not adequately visible. A recent case at this location ETA Register of Appeals Case Reference 2240411930 (Ramesh Panchani v. London Borough of Harrow, Decision Date: 29 Nov 2024, Adjudicator: Edward Houghton) resulted in a PCN cancellation due to the council's failure to prove the "No Right Turn" signs were adequately visible at the time of the alleged contravention. The adjudicator noted that the council provided site photographs taken after the contravention date but failed to prove that the signage was positioned correctly at the time of the alleged contravention. The CCTV footage did not clearly show the No Right Turn sign, casting doubt on whether it was sufficiently visible to motorists at the time.

My case is very similar, as both my case and the cited appeal occurred at night, which significantly worsened visibility conditions. The lack of proper illumination further compounded the issue, making it unreasonable to expect compliance with the restriction. Additionally, my case presents further evidence that the built-in sign illumination was not working, a key factor that was not explicitly considered in the previous appeal but further undermines the signage adequacy at this location. Given this prior ruling and the similarities to my case, it is clear that the signage at this junction does not meet the legal standard required for enforcement.

I have been driving in London for 30 years and am a careful and experienced driver. Of course, anyone can claim this, but I have never previously received a PCN for a similar offence. This further reinforces that the signage at this junction was inadequate, as I would not have missed a properly visible restriction.

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Incandescent · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2025, 05:09:05 am »

Regulation 18 of the LATOR regulations governing how councils must proceed in order to create a Traffic Regulation Order: -

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Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and (my bold)

(c)in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

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Author Topic: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated (Read 80 times)

echo

HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated

echo

Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated

Incandescent

Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated

echo

Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated

Incandescent

Re: HARROW Council - 50R Prohibited Right Turn - Kenton Service Road HA3 - Signs not illuminated