Author Topic: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.  (Read 52 times)

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ChocolateGinger

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On Saturday I parked on a road I thought was free parking and received a PCN.

I drove down a road called Walworth Place where signs meant free parking. I couldn't find a space so I turned right (Bronti Close) and parked on the left where there was a spot.

When I came back I saw that I had a ticket. I was shocked as I wasn't parked on a yellow line and had thought it was free parking.

I read the ticket and it said I'd failed to park with a Valid Virtual permit or Valid Physical Permit.

I walked out to the corner, looked around again and noticed the sign for Permit Holders Only.
I didn't see the sign when I was going in and I didn't see any permit on the two cars before mine.

I'm so sorry about this especially as before leaving home my DH had reminded me to be careful and I had said I would be very careful. GBP65 is a lot of money.

Please is there any way out at all?

 

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Incandescent

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Quote
Please is there any way out at all?
Well, possibly there is, but you've told us nothing at all of any use to us. So please read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and then update your post accordingly.

Do be aware that many of what seem to be "no hope" cases are won because the enforcing council are not obeying the law either !

cp8759

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@ChocolateGinger as Incandescent indicates we need to see the PCN without any redactions to give proper advice, but my first observation is that they've used an off-street code but there does not appear to be anything to alter you that it's an off-street car park.

The relevant order is The London Borough of Southwark (Housing estate roads and car parks) (No. 1) Order 2012 and the map for the Nelson Estate is on page 89.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ChocolateGinger

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, but you've told us nothing at all of any use to us. So please read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and then update your post accordingly.
Thank you.
My heading stipulates as required, the body explains what happened and I  posted the PCN twice.
 I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region.

Apologies if I've missed what you're pointing me to,  I'm more than willing to provide the info you need.

ChocolateGinger

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@ChocolateGinger as Incandescent indicates we need to see the PCN without any redactions to give proper advice, but my first observation is that they've used an off-street code but there does not appear to be anything to alter you that it's an off-street car park.

The relevant order is The London Borough of Southwark (Housing estate roads and car parks) (No. 1) Order 2012 and the map for the Nelson Estate is on page 89.
Thank you for your advice. I  posted the PCN twice.
 I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region. I also tried using the Facebook sign up option not just email but it says they have a problem with Facebook.
The only details missing are the colour, make and reg.
I'm on my phone at the moment and shall try it on my laptop.


Incandescent

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Sorry, it seems I missed your buried links which is easy to do in the early hours of the morning !




ChocolateGinger

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Still not able to sign up to that website.
I see that it's possible to see photos taken by the officer.

I'll have access to my laptop and the PCN later today but in the meantime can you please use the information to access the site?

https://pcnevidence.southwarkparking.co.uk/pcnonline/index.php

JK13271926
PO70TXC

Thank you.

cp8759

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I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region.
Imgur is available worldwide (apart from maybe places like China or North Korea) and I can see your IP address belongs to a mainstream UK ISP, so there is no reason why it would not work unless you have some really weird internet settings. You also don't need an account, the "new post" link in the top left will work regardless of whether you have an account or not.

That being said, I've posted the photos for you:

















This should be easy enough:

Dear London Borough of Southwark,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park.

As the location is off-street, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 are irrelevant and are of no application. Ordinarily in an off-street car park there would be a tariff board outlining that the car park is subject to statutory parkings controls, listing the terms and conditions of parking, and stating that failure to comply with the requirements imposed by the parking places order might result in a penalty charge notice being served.

At this location there appears to be no signage at all informing users that they are in an off-street car park, so there is nothing to advise motorists that this is an off-street car park subject to statutory controls, nor is there anything to inform users that the bay markings and signs are anything more than merely advisory.

I would suggest it is wholly improper for an authority to fail to convey the requirements of a parking places order or even tell motorists that the land in question is a designated off-street car park, and then say "Surprise! you have a statutory PCN!" when the motorist had no way of knowing there are any enforceable restrictions at all.

I had been given no information about the fact that this was an off-street car park, or that a parking places order imposed any restrictions, let alone what those restrictions might be.

In the circumstances the alleged contravention cannot have occurred, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. Obviously don't expect the council to concede, this will likely have to go to the tribunal.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ChocolateGinger

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Thank you CP8759, especially for providing the Order, pointing out where the estate map is in the Order and going as far as writing out the appeal!

I'd spent so much time trying to find the estate in the Order and as I came to draft my reply I saw you'd actually stated the page it's on! You are very helpful and much appreciated.

The map shows Bronti Close is on street parking and following from your comment and stated in your draft re Con 85 being off street, I Googled what that means and it shows that Con 85 is a contravention under Off Street Car Park Contraventions! The street is on street parking, but they've used off street con.

I'll submit the appeal as stated and hope they concede and I don't have to go all the way to the tribunal.

I did try repeatedly to access Igmur.com. On my phone there's no "New Post" anywhere on the screen and it won't let me sign in into my newly set up account.
On my laptop the "New Post" is seen at the top left corner of the page but it doesn't open to a usable page when I click on it. It opens to a page with the sign up and sign in options in the top right and Imgur on the left but nowhere to actually upload photos of the PCN.

I was attempting to upload the PCN (which I'd uploaded on IBB.com) to Igmur for ease of viewing the PCN in my post. As I was experiencing difficulty, I posted the reg and PCN which were not visible on the PCN so that readers can view the parking officer's photos if they wish.
I wasn't trying to upload photos of the car, only the PCN. I prefer photos of the car to not be in the post please.

Thank you once again.

Imgur is available worldwide (apart from maybe places like China or North Korea) and I can see your IP address belongs to a mainstream UK ISP, so there is no reason why it would not work unless you have some really weird internet settings. You also don't need an account, the "new post" link in the top left will work regardless of whether you have an account or not.

That being said, I've posted the photos for you:


..... The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park....