Author Topic: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone  (Read 365 times)

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joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com

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Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« on: October 13, 2024, 11:18:29 pm »
https://imgur.com/a/synFvN0

https://imgur.com/a/gtEIuSE

https://maps.app.goo.gl/J69YSecTc9aXdDFY8?g_st=ic


Dear forum,

Are there any grounds where I may have a chance to appeal this PCN? I drove through it completely oblivious, this is the second time this has happened to me this Summer.
In my experience the pedestrian zone signage is very easy to miss especially in an area you don’t know well. They seem to be a real money trap, and can hardly imagine how many people get caught driving through them unawares day to day.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer me.

Best, JP
« Last Edit: October 13, 2024, 11:27:26 pm by joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com »

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Incandescent

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2024, 12:26:05 am »
Thw video shows you entering the street, but the camera is located on the restricted street, so doesn't show you passing any sign. It merely shows you and another car, turning left into the street.

As well as the above, it is either a left or right turn into this street, so the council should have erected advance warning signs to alert you. Trouble is GSV Street View is May 2023, and doesn't show the signs. Is there any possibility you can do some legwork and post photos of the approach ?

I suggest you submit representations on the following lines: =

Dear Sirs

Re PCN <PCN Number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy for location <location name>

I deny responsibility for the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

Your video shows my car turning left into the street concerned,  but does not show me passing any signs advising of the restriction.  In addition to this, there are no signs advising of any restriction on the approach whilst driving on Wightman Road.

I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled forthwith

Yours faithfully

To win PCNs like this, you must be prepared to take them to London Tribunals, and forget about the discount option. Councils rely for their millions of pounds of PCN cash on people just coughing-up to get closure.

joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2024, 08:26:10 am »
Yes, I will drive through today or tomorrow to see what I can find. Thank you for the quick and helpful response.

joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2024, 12:37:13 pm »
https://imgur.com/a/LJiu43k

https://imgur.com/a/yhOqAeq

So unfortunately there is a sign around 40 yards before the approach to Frobisher, and I’ve sent the entry to Frobisher too. Not quite sure how I missed it, I think it’s because this is a route I’ve taken in the past to my mechanic and this must be a relatively new signage.

Incandescent

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2024, 06:05:07 pm »
The photos do seem to be clear enough, I have to say.  cp8759, Our adminstrator always says submit reps for any and every traffic contravention, so hopefully he can suggest what to put in them.

There are any number of things that can get a PCN cancelled, e.g. the traffic order may be deficient, the signs were obscured etc. Submitting reps gets the PCN kicked into touch for a while thus allowing detailed checks on the location to be made.

stamfordman

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2024, 06:29:34 pm »
I'll have a look on the tribunal register - there may be allowed appeals despite the advance sign.


joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2024, 08:08:22 am »
Thank you for looking into this. If anything comes to mind please let me know, I have a few more days of the discounted PCN available.
To me as a layman, a fairly new sign at an angle you only observe having once begun indicating is so easy to miss…it feels as if there should be a grace period for first time offenders.
I think what may have happened is that I drove through this road when the schools were out several weeks before and there was no sign. I can’t be sure of this, and I have no way to prove it. I do my best to be extra vigilant with ‘pedestrian zones’, as I’m sure you all do. I’m always surprised to get caught out.
Driving through London these days is like a gauntlet, I loathe it. If it isn’t traffic and temporary traffic lights, it’s greedy councils devising more schemes to take our money from us.

mrmustard

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2024, 12:59:57 pm »
I have challenged a PCN at this location and relied on this photo taken from my dashcam



All I wrote was this:

Signage is inadequate to alert a driver of the restriction there not being the necessary 40m of clear head on view to the signs.
I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

Hippocrates

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2024, 01:55:33 pm »
Also issues with their website.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

stamfordman

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2024, 04:11:25 pm »
This is in a recent batch of school streets in Haringey and I can't see any tribunal cases but the database is dreadful as the location search often fails unless you get the terms right especially for zones, junctions.

Will be interesting to see if they raise the advance sign, which is a proper sign, as evidence.


joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2024, 10:49:12 pm »
Given that there is an ‘advance sign’ roughly 40 yards on the approach, on what grounds could one appeal?

on the grounds that they don’t include the signage in their photographic evidence, they the camera is incorrectly located ?

mrmustard

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2024, 11:50:11 pm »
A warning sign isn't adequate on its own if the main signage is found to be wanting.

I have a video of the approach on this narrow winding road which shows it is hard to take your eyes off the road to look up to the left.
I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2024, 09:24:04 pm »
Thanks Mr Mustard, any chance you can email me ?

What was the wording of your appeal ?

mrmustard

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2024, 09:39:51 pm »
As post 7, short and simple
I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

joshua.rowen.press@googlemail.com

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Re: Haringey Council, Pedestrian Zone
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2024, 09:43:09 pm »
Chat gpt’s attempt, the future is now

Subject: Appeal Against PCN for Frobisher Road

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally appeal against the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to me for allegedly driving in a pedestrian zone at Frobisher Road.

Upon approaching from Wightman Road, I found it very difficult to see any clear signage indicating the restriction, apart from an advance warning sign approximately 40 yards before the turn. As I am not familiar with the area and given that the signage is relatively new, I believe it is easy for drivers to miss.

To further substantiate my appeal, I have obtained dashcam footage from another driver who experienced a similar issue at the same location. This footage clearly demonstrates the challenges in noticing the signage and reinforces my claim regarding its inadequate visibility.

I understand that the pedestrian zone is part of a School Streets initiative aimed at improving safety and air quality during school hours  . While I fully support such initiatives, it is crucial that the signage is clear and effective to prevent unwitting violations by drivers, particularly those unfamiliar with the area.

Given these circumstances, I kindly request that you review my case, taking into account the dashcam evidence, and consider cancelling the PCN based on the insufficient visibility of the signage.

Thank you for your understanding.

Yours faithfully,
[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[Your Contact Information]
[PCN Number]

Make sure to mention that you are including the dashcam footage as supporting evidence when you submit your appeal. This addition strengthens your case by providing concrete evidence of the signage issue.