3. Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
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roadster01

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Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« on: May 14, 2024, 12:06:14 am »
Hi,
I recently received this PCN for an expired visitors permit (I was visiting my parents here). It is true that I scratched out "April" instead of "May" (Contravention occurred on 01/05/2024) however this was a total mistake, I had actually scratched it that morning!
I have submitted a reps stating this just to extend my Reduced Charge, although I know this won't stand at all to cancel the PCN.
I'm wondering if anyone can find some legal issue to invalidate the PCN before I pay.

Photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WdCoK8vB1z_91BOAdkc4QjL2Erhjmp3s?usp=drive_link

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xWw8nB69HByxD6ZS9

There are more pictures on the council website.

Thanks
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Incandescent

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2024, 12:24:30 am »
Please post the back of the PCN so we can look for errors in the "small print".

It might be worth submitting reps on a grovelling basis, saying that you were staying at your parents and had not realised the month was now May, (the PCN is dated 1st May), so scratched-out the wrong month and ask that on this ocasion the PCN be cancelled. However the hardest of hard hearts are found in council parking departments, so don't expect too much, but you never know.
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roadster01

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2024, 12:36:15 am »
Here's the back.
I've the grovelling approach before- hard hearts indeed.... 
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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2024, 01:44:27 am »
As far as I can see, the PCN does not comply with these regulations: -

The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022

In particular, Chapter 1, Regulation 3

Quote
CHAPTER 1
Information to be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices
Information about right to make representations or appeal to be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and enforcement notices
3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;
(b)that if, before a notice to owner is served, representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;
(c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Do you see anything like 3(1)(c) on it ? All of 3(1) a, b, and c must be on the PCN. Different words can be used, but must convey the same meaning.
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roadster01

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2024, 08:38:08 pm »
I had a look,
I believe that the paragraph I circled in the picture attached contains the info in 3 (1)(c). I'm not that great with all the legal jargon (quite hopeless actually) but let me know if I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 08:46:53 pm by roadster01 »
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zwi

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2024, 02:58:52 pm »
Maybe you can prove that 01/04/24 was not on Wednesday, as I see you scratch Wed  which was 01/05/24
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roadster01

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2024, 08:27:59 pm »
Good point, however as I already sent my reps I want to make sure this claim would stand in court. What do you think?
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cp8759

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2024, 10:05:45 pm »
Quote from: roadster01 on May 16, 2024, 08:27:59 pm
Good point, however as I already sent my reps I want to make sure this claim would stand in court. What do you think?
PCNs don't go to court, so that would be a bit difficult. It wouldn't be relevant at the tribunal either because you're submitting mitigation, and only the authority has a power to cancel a penalty based on mitigating circumstances.

But even if the PCN is upheld at the informal stage that is not a reason not to have another go at the NTO stage, as long as the NTO is challenged within 14 days you're almost certain to get the discount reoffered.

That being said, for now it would be useful to see what you sent.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 05:32:35 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
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roadster01

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2024, 11:28:19 pm »
I had sent it before posting here. So I just wrote in short that it was a mistake and that i had really filled it out that morning. I was just trying to buy time as my 14 days were nearly up.
They will definitly uphold the PCN (hard hearts...), So I'll just wait for an NTO?
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cp8759

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2024, 05:34:34 pm »
@roadster01 well the only things you can do now are wait for the NTO or pay, and considering that the discount will be offered again as long as the NTO is challenged within 14 days, there's not much point in paying now.

That being said the formal representations need to be as robust as possible.

Do you have any mitigation that could be put to the council, even if it is wholly unrelated to the contravention?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

roadster01

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2024, 11:12:53 pm »
Not anything special that I can think of other than what @zwi pointed out. I couldn't have used the permit on any other date.
I was visiting my parents at the time and I couldn't leave early. My two kids were busy having mini emergencies (this happens quite often 😁) so it's quite understandable that I wasn't fully focused as I was scratching out the card.
Thanks
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cp8759

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2024, 10:00:19 pm »
How old are the children?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

roadster01

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2024, 11:32:11 pm »
Youngest is just over 1. The older one is turning 3 in a 2 months
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cp8759

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2024, 01:05:25 pm »
Can you please describe the nature of the "mini-emergencies"?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

roadster01

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Re: Haringey Code 19- Fairview road - Expired Permit
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2024, 07:00:08 pm »
Just the usual's, Catching Nappies before they leak. I think at some point one of them banged into the edge of a table and needed calming while we needed to keep an eye out for the younger one (who only crawls) as she kept making a beeline for the stairs. Regular lively kids. I don't generally get a long time to focus on things while they're in action ;D
Trying to juggle that and breakfast just meant that my permit scratching skills were not up to par. I can't say for sure but I probably would've noticed the mistake had I been more settled.
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