Author Topic: Haringey, code 12(r) Parked in a shared use place without P&D ticket, Upper Tollington Park  (Read 2435 times)

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Why they need to use the sign for a lunchtime game (as today) as a match day though is a bit daft as it was over by 14:30.
So there might be an argument that the restriction was ultra-vires, similarly to the box junction case in Ricardo Bowden v London Borough of Newham (2240295228, 2 January 2025).

@stamfordman what evidence is there about the end time of the relevant event?

And crucially, was the end time something that was known in advance?

The kick-off for the 1 April game when the OP parked was 19:45. I'm just pointing out that flipping it to the match day plate makes little sense for a 12:30 kick-off if all it does is add 2 hours after the usual 18:30 end time.

There could be another event though on the same day (eg in Finsbury Park).

As I said though the advantage of this signage is you don't need to know anything about events and just obey the sign.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2025, 07:06:37 pm by stamfordman »

Yes there are entry signs with event days but as we know these control only single yellows.

If you park in the bay with that parking sign I do think the only conclusion you can make is it that those times are operational on that day. The only alternative IMO is that there are no restrictions on non-event days, which is a point that could be tested. 

But it could be clearer and also say 'Event day today'.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2025, 07:13:04 pm by cp8759 »

Within the controlled times Mon-Sat, the Pay-by-Phone times are identical for normal and event days being 10am to 5pm

A few nonsense posts have now vanished. We all need to remember that it's not up to any of us to decide the rights and wrongs, what we have to bear in mind is, if the adjudicator asks the appellant "what's wrong with this sign ?"



there needs to be a compelling answer, not one that they can deal with by saying "I disagree and find as a fact that the contravention occurred".

Simply saying that it was impossible to know whether the sign applied or not is not going to cut it. Please let's be realistic and remember that we need to give legal advise on arguable points and on the prospects of success of those arguments, this is not a philosophical debate about the rights and wrongs of what the council has done. Further posts that ignore this will be removed without further warning.

Going back to the previous issue, clearly for the 1st April the council could say that the extended hours means people wouldn't turn up and occupy all the bays before kick-off, so the ultra-vires argument doesn't work either.

In these circumstances the best option might be the strategy of last resort, though I have come up with a few variations of it they all depend on the OP having some sort of mitigating evidence for the council to (fail to) look at.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2025, 07:13:16 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Thank you all for your ongoing discussion. In particular thank you @stamfordman for going through the trouble of going to the location to take a photo.

I'm honestly at a loss for how I got it so badly wrong, I have good vision and don't normally make these kinds of mistakes.

Is me saying the sign hadn't been flipped over a poor defence? Would there be any onus on the authority to prove it had been done? The rejection letter says they do it "days before" an event, therefore any assertion that the sign wasn't flipped to match mode cannot be correct.

... surely that can't be true, because, if what they're saying is indeed the case, the implication is that, on the days leading up to an event, people are able to park without any restrictions whatsoever?

In these circumstances the best option might be the strategy of last resort, though I have come up with a few variations of it they all depend on the OP having some sort of mitigating evidence for the council to (fail to) look at.

The only thing I can come up with is just a screenshot of GSV which I saw before I set off. Or proof of purchase at the restaurant. They probably won't bother to look at either of those things.

If I wait for the NtO, appeal and then they reject it, will they re-offer the discounted rate?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2025, 11:02:56 pm by elucidate »

Is me saying the sign hadn't been flipped over a poor defence?
It's arguable, as the quality of the photo from the CEO is so bad, an adjudicator might decide that he can't be sure it had been flipped. But by your own admission, you don't really recall if it was flipped or not.

... surely that can't be true, because, if what they're saying is indeed the case, the implication is that, on the days leading up to an event, people are able to park without any restrictions whatsoever?
No, if that's what they're saying the implication is that they're imposing event day restrictions on non-event days.

The only thing I can come up with is just a screenshot of GSV which I saw before I set off. Or proof of purchase at the restaurant. They probably won't bother to look at either of those things.
OK so that's something.

If I wait for the NtO, appeal and then they reject it, will they re-offer the discounted rate?
You can't appeal an NTO, you can only make a formal representation against it. They would normally reoffer the discount but you can take it as read that they will reject. It's only when you appeal to the tribunal that you get a fair hearing.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Good afternoon everyone,

Some linked updates:


In order to try and leverage the Strategy of Last Resort, I did provide them with a Bitly link as mitigating evidence, and my Bitly analytics clearly show no-one ever clicked on it.
@cp8759 Can you please advise on how to proceed on this basis?

[EDIT: Broken links fixed]
« Last Edit: August 03, 2025, 07:05:04 pm by elucidate »

OP, pl read what you've posted.

Their NOR was sent on 7 July. Their letter dated 29 July advises you and includes a copy.

Assuming you didn't receive the original NOR, you could simply ignore the copy and wait for the process to unfold i.e. Charge Certificate, Order for Recovery, revocation order, authority referral to adjudicator and your appeal.

Or you could register an appeal now - and add procedural impropriety to what you had in your reps- and carry on. This would be quicker and you would be in control.

With a NOR dated 7 July the mandated (as opposed to the period stated in the NOR) 28 days to appeal ends on TUESDAY 5 AUGUST. 

WaIt for other views.
...but don't wait too long.

OP, pl read what you've posted.

Their NOR was sent on 7 July. Their letter dated 29 July advises you and includes a copy.

Assuming you didn't receive the original NOR, you could simply ignore the copy and wait for the process to unfold i.e. Charge Certificate, Order for Recovery, revocation order, authority referral to adjudicator and your appeal.

Or you could register an appeal now - and add procedural impropriety to what you had in your reps- and carry on. This would be quicker and you would be in control.

With a NOR dated 7 July the mandated (as opposed to the period stated in the NOR) 28 days to appeal ends on TUESDAY 5 AUGUST. 

WaIt for other views.
...but don't wait too long.

I received the original NOR but I misplaced it hence I asked them to send me another one, with the intention to abide by the given timeline, hence I am getting everything in place for me to file a case with the adjudicator by midnight tonight. Is today not the last day, then?

Here is the draft (if you want to skip the points I have previously submitted to the Council then you can start reading from halfway down the second page).

And here are the URL analytics.

Link to full folder of docs --> https://drive.google.com/file/d/16sLCNZfuD7Kn7lhsE0n33CXkEPlQhtwg/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: August 03, 2025, 07:08:27 pm by elucidate »

There's no discount now so may as well appeal.

It could be worth getting the traffic order. The case below suggests those CPZ entry signs could be wrong with all the dates but the case is for Newham not Haringey.

-------------

Case reference   2250234820
Appellant   
Authority   London Borough of Newham
VRM   SX64EFL
   
PCN Details
PCN   PN21502865
Contravention date   29 Dec 2024
Contravention time   09:56:00
Contravention location   Ham Park Road
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Parked resident/shared use without a valid permit
   
Referral date   -
   
Decision Date   29 Jul 2025
Adjudicator   Edward Houghton
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons   I heard this appeal by video link.
The Appellant’s case is essentially that there was no signage in the immediate vicinity to inform her that the day in w question was an event day. This may be so. However the Council clearly relies on this information being given on Controlled Zone signage which the motorist must pass in order to reach the eventual parking place – a standard form of stadium signage.
In the present case, however, although plans have been provided together with photographs of the signs relied on, these are of very poor quality and do not clearly show either the location of the signs or the location where the vehicle parked. I am not satisfied this evidence is sufficient to prove what is needed to be proved, namely that the Appellant could not have reached her parking place without passing such a sign.
I would also add that the Secretary of State’s authorisation for the sign allows the lower panel to be varied to the “date of the next event” – not the date of the next event and the event following that.
The Appeal must therefore be allowed



@elucidate I'll drop you a PM.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

You received the NOR but didn't post this here.

You then wrote to the authority - when we don't know but their reply implies that you did not acknowledge that you had received the NOR - who replied as posted.

The NOR was dated Mon. 7th July, therefore served on 9th which is day 1 of the regulatory period of 28 days whose end date is therefore 5th August, NOT 6 Aug. as the NOR states i.e. 28 days from! Hence your PI grounds.