Author Topic: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )  (Read 5178 times)

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Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« on: »
@cp8759

After living with this in my street 3 years i stupidly thought id been reading the signage wrong and began driving through the LTN.  Google began sending people through. Drove through possibly 10 times, the PCN's haven’t stopped arriving yet!  I was going to be honest and plead leniency?  Please help

My appeal draft:
Recently there was a broken water main on West Green Road with diversions in place within the area and some open LTN’s. 

During this time I saw lots of cars driving through the Gorleston Rd/Falmer Rd LTN, this was confounded by Google Maps directing people through this LTN.  I understand sat nav is an aid not permission to drive somewhere but at the time it added to my decision.  This all made me think I had been misreading the sign incorrectly since the LTN was instated and I thought that you can actually drive through outside of these times ‘8am - 6.30pm mon - fri’.  You’ll notice my contravention times all coincide with my confusion regarding these hours.

Often upon entering other LTN’s in the area the signage displaying any applicable entry hours is above head height.  It is visible on the parking prohibited sign but in a separate section which I misinterpreted as pertaining to the LTN.

Historically I have not and would never have knowingly driven through otherwise.

Since August 2022 I’ve not driven through these, I didn’t all of a sudden begin driving through for no apparent reason.  My mistake was an honest one and I drove through in good faith thinking I was adhering to the signage. 

I now have multiple PCN’s for this same contravention during this week of confusion, could you please show some leniency and reduce the fine’s? 

Ive attached screen grabs showing Google Maps sending people through the LTN’s in my street just so you can see.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1olzr_iAvks8fETeNxi6_I4--nJ8DJ4Iq/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 11:13:00 am by Goretechre »

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Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #1 on: »
The PCN is invalid. Back in a moment.  I won a case on this very recently:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mq9MAnLdByhCxR5IzpKhvDT7LKlTOHUJ/view

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/haringey-52(m)-pcn-nor-help-(downhills-park-rd-n17)/msg54378/#msg54378

Use this:

The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:

1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.

(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—

(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;


In light of the above, please cancel.

*************

I am happy to represent you should they reject.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 11:25:23 am by Hippocrates »
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #2 on: »
@Hippocrates Thank you!  What should it say for the PCN to be payable?  Sorry im a total layman here.  I need to make certain all of the PCN's that are sent read the same
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 12:45:29 pm by Goretechre »

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #3 on: »
No worries: most laws are hard enough to understand but this one is an exception!

It should say that payment should be made by the date of the notice. The corollary is that they have also not stated that they may issue a charge certificate unless you make reps. from the date of service.

If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge during the 28 day period indicated, or to make representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £195 may be payable”.

Even better would be a full recital of the 2 different periods for payment and for making representations.


Let's deal with each one and cross each bridge at the appropriate time. The others would be classed as disproportionate most likely. But, you must make reps. against each one separately.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 01:13:50 pm by Hippocrates »
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 01:14:36 pm by Goretechre »

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #5 on: »
Put in the same and explain that the issue of several PCNs is disproportionate for what is essentially a repeated alleged contravention.  I am helping another member who has 8.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #6 on: »
@Goretechre I'll leave you in Hippocrates's capable hands.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #7 on: »
@cp8759 Much appreciated!

@Hippocrates Morning,  i think this might be all of the PCN's - 6 in total!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dFtYSn6Qn7v-zrc2fyYzog1E_MOn-Dzi?usp=sharing

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #8 on: »
So as advised: make formal reps. against each one.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #9 on: »
@Hippocrates Is their following text without proper spacing not enough in itself to void the PCN's?

"OR, if you believe you have good reason not to pay the penalty charge, you should write to us explaining why (seerepresentationssectionoverleaf).Althoughtherearespecificlegalgroundsformakingrepresentations,we will consider exercising or discreation..."

also 'may be' is spelled "maybe"?

---------

So i'll paste the following into the rep online for all 7 (theres a total of 7 listed online on the payment page). 

Quote
The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:

1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.

(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—

(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;

In light of the above, please cancel.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 01:23:36 pm by Goretechre »

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #10 on: »
@Hippocrates hi sorry to keep pestering you!  Should i appeal the first one and see what happens or should i just appeal them all?

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #11 on: »
@Hippocrates hi sorry to keep pestering you!  Should i appeal the first one and see what happens or should i just appeal them all?
You must make representations against all of them and individually. No worries.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #12 on: »
As above, challenge all of the PCN and take a screenshot of the confirmation page, at the end you should have as many confirmation screenshots as you have PCNs.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #13 on: »
@Hippocrates

Im pasting the text you said, nothing needs entering or amending, just paste in as is and tick "mitigating circumstances"? 

The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:

1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.

(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—

(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;

In light of the above, please cancel.

Re: Haringey 52M PCN ( Cornwall Road N15 - LTN Multiple PCN'S )
« Reply #14 on: »
@Hippocrates Im pasting the text you said, nothing needs entering or amending, just paste in as is and tick "mitigating circumstances"?



The PCN wrongly states which action triggers the period in which the council
may serve a charge certificate: “If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, an
increased charge of £195.00 maybe payable. We may then send you a Charge
Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount.” The law states at Schedule 1 5:

1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge
to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the
enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph
referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.

(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28
days beginning—

(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date
on which the penalty charge notice is served;

In light of the above, please cancel.