My mum received this ticket on 25th Feb relating to date of alleged contravention 16th Feb.
My husband borrowed her car for first time, had insurance bought for occasion, intending to drive to Norwich. Unfortunately he didn't get far before being issued with a fine, just metres from my mum's house. He found the sign unclear. My mum's car (the one he was driving) has a permit for Boundary Road, from which he was collecting the car. He did see a no entry sign but it also had a sign saying "Except permit holders" so hepresumed this didn't apply to him since he was exiting the road and the car had a permit on Boundary Road. The sign is double sided so it applies both ways for context. Google maps unfortunately sent him this way. He is unfamiliar with the LTN scheme and the local area so did not know there was another way out. In fact it was his first day ever driving in England since he is an Italian National. I think mum tried to explain it to him but he was still confused.
The location is here:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3M2yC53PsHeJshMi8 . He was coming from Boundary Road and then turned left into Crawley Road. So, the bike shed was on the side he was coming from obscuring one of the signs / planters.
I think there may be a case here that this sign is unclear for permit holders of cars on either Crawley or Boundary? Otherwise, it would just be mitigation, which we expect the council to refuse, or we go to Tribunal and perhaps catch them on a procedural impropriety.
He submitted representations on my mum's behalf and they final got back to us on 3rd April, arrived yesterday, 4th April, to say that mum has to submit representations because she was the car owner and they won't accept his. My mum has have been given a further 14 days to do so. At this point it just says to write to them. There is an address at the top of the letter but we are not explicitly directed there.
I can't find a copy of our original representations because we forgot to tick the box 'email me a copy' - I had already hit submit. So it seems to be lost in the ether but we said something along the lines of what we said above about the signs being unclear and him being a non local driving for the first time in England so unfamiliar with LTNs in this area. We also said it was double sided so there didn't seem to be another way out.
Previously, there was an option to submit representations on the Haringey website. We found this very confusing.
When you go to the link in the letter of the original PCN (
https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking) you are overwhelmed with options. One of them does say:
Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) – parking and traffic
Pay a parking or traffic PCN, view evidence, make a challenge, appeal a decision, lost PCNs, unpaid PCNs, vulnerable residents and contact us about a PCN.
After you submit your PCN number and reg info it takes you to this screen
https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/PCN/MainDisplay where there is a clear read box saying 'Pay PCN' but not much else. If you then navigate to the "Contact Us" tab (
https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/PCN/MakeRepresentationAddInfo) there is a box entitled 'Your Notes'. Above it are the instructions:
Please use the box below to provide information you would like the Council to consider in relation to this PCN or further information if you have already made a challenge or representation. You must include your name, postal address with postcode and e-mail address, or the Council will not be able to respond to your correspondence. You can upload supporting documents instead of, or together with more information, but the document(s) must also include your name, postal address with postcode and e-mail address, if you have not typed this into the box below.
Many would not think of navigating to this page. I would presume 'Contact Us' means reach out for help but not submit a representation. There are no grounds of appeal stated.
At this point, it is unclear if we can still use this box or if we must write.
I have seen other similar PCNs challenged successfully because the grounds of appeal aren't clearly listed on the website. This appears to still the case. Also, it is unclear if this is indeed the correct place to make a representation. I would expect a clear box labelled 'make a representation'. It just says 'further information you would like the council to consider'. In the latest letter, they have not stated any grounds of appeal at all and the only option appears to be to write to them.
It seems that the original PCN is valid as in there are no procedural improprieties with the dates or the wording (I checked your spreadsheet) apart from this issue on the website, which remains confusing as to where you submit and there is no guidance given / grounds of appeal.
The council already provided a video of him turning left past the signs, which we don't dispute.
Here is a link with the images, sorry they are poor I don't have the hard copies my mum does and she isn't the most techy:
https://imgur.com/a/haringey-letters-c0ujl9oI can try to get better copies but you should be able to make out the content.
Your help would be much appreciated regarding appealing this fine. We have really about a week now because of postage time and given the date on this letter being 2 days ago now. Hopefully if they send a Notice of Rejection they will at least re-offer the discounted rate of £65.
Unfortunately he got another fine that day from TFL which we have just submitted our challenge for because the Notice of Rejection doesn't clearly state the amount owed and when. Thank you for providing your helpful spreadsheet from which we were able to make this argument and reference other cases. I have put myself down as the representative as we were so time limited (they sent it REALLY late) it wouldn't have been feasible to ask someone here. Is it too late to change this to one of you?
Thank you.
PS. I have just seen that the wording of the original PCN may be deemed incorrect because it states that if you don't pay within 28 days of service a Charge Certificate will be issued, without giving the option to make representations instead. Is that right? My gosh they are all making a hash of these PCNS! Long may it continue!
PSS. If I have understood correctly you might want to adjust the wording of the PCN flaw for Haringey in your spreadsheet because I initially incorrectly assumed it didn't apply to me. You say:
Charge certificate if PCN not paid after 28 days from date of notice
But, they have said 'service' correctly in the appellant's letter (and ours). The issue now is that they have not mentioned the right of making representations to stop the Charge Certificate. Rather they just say PAY OR ELSE.
